From: Neil <picdude3@narwani.org>
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <piclist@mit.edu>
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Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 09:55:57 -0700
Subject: Re: [EE] Pick & Place
Thread-Topic: [EE] Pick & Place
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Yes, used machines are less than appealing where you are.

If you have the budget for one of those free-standing machines, then=20
sure.  I was just suggesting that even those desktop-sized Neoden-type=20
machines will be much more than sufficient for just 20 boards a day=20
(though not sure how many parts are on your boards).

Most of these machines claim at least 2k parts per hour.  That's ideal=20
and depends on where the feeders and component pads are located.  Say=20
1000 cph is realistic.  At say 50 parts per board, that's 20 boards in=20
one hour.

Cheers,
-Neil.


On 5/9/2020 12:18 PM, Isaac M. Bavaresco wrote:
> Neil,
>
>
> The US$20K is for the machine alone, plus 10K for import duties. I could
> spend some more on feeders.
>
> All the machines I mentioned fall in this price range.
>
> The oven I can buy here in Brazil for just over US$1K.
>
>
> I'm not buying an used machine. Other companies around us did it and are
> always in trouble with lack of parts, high cost of parts and also
> control software that only run on ancient OSs, etc.
>
>
> The desktop machines are not enough for me. I need something slightly
> bigger, like these:
>
> <http://www.charmhigh-tech.com/sale-10249800-charmhigh-in-line-pick-and-p=
lace-machine-6-heads-60-feeders-auto-nozzle-change.html>
>
> <https://pt.aliexpress.com/item/32852374829.html?spm=3Da2g0o.productlist.=
0.0.45ee3204EeR8u2&algo_pvid=3D3572210a-1255-4aff-9bf9-48f27adda36c&algo_ex=
pid=3D3572210a-1255-4aff-9bf9-48f27adda36c-0&btsid=3D0be3743615890409269933=
819e9fba&ws_ab_test=3Dsearchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_>
>
> <https://pt.aliexpress.com/item/32862645636.html?spm=3Da2g0o.productlist.=
0.0.18723b3egmxME8&algo_pvid=3D2308e710-32e5-4f69-baa8-e1bf625a7646&algo_ex=
pid=3D2308e710-32e5-4f69-baa8-e1bf625a7646-0&btsid=3D0ab6f82215890409616672=
128e15cc&ws_ab_test=3Dsearchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_>
>
> <https://neoden.com.br/insersora-smd-neoden-8>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Isaac
>
>
> Em 09/05/2020 13:02, Neil escreveu:
>> Isaac,
>>
>> Few more random notes...
>>
>> Is this the budget for the whole line, or just the PnP?  Also, I'm not
>> sure how much of your budget will go to import duties etc, but let's say
>> you have US$20k for the price of the machine(s).  That can get you a
>> lot, especially if all you want to do is 20 boards a day. This was my
>> quandry also -- I wanted low volume/low speed, but with the ability to
>> 0603's and even 0402's.  Older machines (lower cost) wouldn't guarantee
>> they'd do 0603's reliably, but were slower. Newer machines could do
>> 0603's reliably, but they seemed to focus on high-speed/volume and the
>> price went up significantly for that.
>>
>> Personally, with that budget, I'd look for a not-so-old used big-boy
>> machine, with the caveat that if/when I need support/parts, they'd
>> charge me $fewK just to register the machine with them and they talk to
>> me. :(  But that would mean physically going to sellers to see the
>> machines operate, which may not work for you.  Also, some of these
>> big-boy machines require 220V, which is not always on hand here in the
>> US, depending on where I'd put it.
>>
>> For you though, I'd stick with the desktop machines... they'll easily do
>> what you want.  Factor in a couple thousand for a stencil printer (get a
>> decent new or used one as that will save you a lot of aggravation), a
>> few thousand for a decent reflow oven, and put $15k towards one of the
>> Neoden-type machines.  Also, avoid IR reflow ovens -- get a basic
>> conveyor oven to save yourself a lot of aggravation.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -Neil.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 5/9/2020 11:21 AM, Isaac M. Bavaresco wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I understand your point, but my budget is between US$20,000.00 to
>>> US$30,000.00, so I can't afford a Fuji, Essemtec, Panasonic, Samsung, e=
tc.
>>>
>>> My requirements are very low. If I can assemble 20 boards a day I call
>>> that a win. Indeed I don't need a machine with a lot of heads, my
>>> limiting factor is minimum number of feeders, but both come together.
>>>
>>> It would be great if some manufacturer had a slow machine with just one
>>> or two heads. Indeed, the reason for NeoDen and YingXing machines havin=
g
>>> so many heads it is because they can't change nozzles, so some of the
>>> heads are reserved for placing just one or two parts per board. The
>>> number of heads available to assemble most parts may be greatly reduced=
..
>>>
>>> That Charmhigh machine that changes nozzles could have just 4 heads and
>>> perhaps be faster than the others.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Isaac
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Em 09/05/2020 11:25, louijp@gmail.com escreveu:
>>>> Isaac,I do not know those chinese P&P machines, as all my work life I =
was partial to Fuji. They were the best value for the money.Before purchasi=
ng any equipment, try to find a shop/plant using what you're looking to buy=
.. Ask also for references from the supplier.He should be happy to put you i=
n contact with happy users.That what I was always doing before buying new S=
MT lines.One of my quality test was what I  called the Nickel test. I would=
 put a nickel (5 cent US) standing on its edge while the machine was runnin=
g. Fuji always passed as they are built for long use without vibrations. Ve=
ry few companies could compare. Another test was feeder change time, as thi=
s affect your production because feeder change is down time.But at that tim=
e, I was spending $20 million a year in SMT lines, so I had to be careful w=
ith my investment.
>>>> Just a few thoughts
>>>>
>>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
>>>>   =20
>>>>     On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 9:33 AM, Isaac M. Bavaresco<isaacbavaresco@=
gmail.com> wrote:   Dear All,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm planning to buy a pick and place machine and the Chinese ones seem
>>>> to have improved a lot recently.
>>>>
>>>> Machines from the big brands are extremely powerful and precise, but
>>>> also extremely expensive too.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Some time ago, NeoDen started offering a cheap P&P machine but it was =
a
>>>> little too small and seemed to be directed to hobbyists. It did not
>>>> support traditional feeders and did not have machine vision.
>>>>
>>>> For some time, while NeoDen was struggling with its hobby machine, oth=
er
>>>> Chinese brands started offering nice looking machines, superior to Neo=
Den's.
>>>>
>>>> Now NeoDen is selling the new NeoDen 8, that supports feeders and visi=
on.
>>>>
>>>> The two other companies that I found and sell nice machines are YingXi=
ng
>>>> and Charmhigh.
>>>>
>>>> The NeoDen 8 machine has 8 heads, 10 cameras and supports 80 feeders,
>>>> but it doesn't have automatic nozzle change.
>>>>
>>>> Charmhigh offers machines with 4 to 8 heads, 6 to 10 cameras and suppo=
rt
>>>> for 30 to 100 feeders. The two biggest machines, (6 and 8 heads),
>>>> support automatic nozzle change. The 8 heads/100 feeders machine is tw=
o
>>>> expensive, about twice the price of the 6 heads one and the competitor=
s.
>>>>
>>>> YingXing offers machines in the same range as CharmHigh, but they don'=
t
>>>> have auto nozzle change.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm pending to the Charmhigh machine with 6 heads and 60 feeders,
>>>> although I need a little more than 60 feeders right now. To overcome
>>>> that problem, I think I could put some of the biggest parts on trays, =
so
>>>> it would free a lot of space for narrower feeders.
>>>>
>>>> The main point that directs my choice it the automatic nozzle change a=
nd
>>>> the support for all the existing feeder widths.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Does anybody know any of these machines? Do they really can be used in=
 a
>>>> professional assembly line? How about precision and durability? Anywhe=
re
>>>> else to look for?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Isaac
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>

--=20
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