From: Neil <picdude3@narwani.org>
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Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 09:02:01 -0700
Subject: Re: [EE] Pick & Place
Thread-Topic: [EE] Pick & Place
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Isaac,

Few more random notes...

Is this the budget for the whole line, or just the PnP?  Also, I'm not=20
sure how much of your budget will go to import duties etc, but let's say=20
you have US$20k for the price of the machine(s).  That can get you a=20
lot, especially if all you want to do is 20 boards a day. This was my=20
quandry also -- I wanted low volume/low speed, but with the ability to=20
0603's and even 0402's.  Older machines (lower cost) wouldn't guarantee=20
they'd do 0603's reliably, but were slower. Newer machines could do=20
0603's reliably, but they seemed to focus on high-speed/volume and the=20
price went up significantly for that.

Personally, with that budget, I'd look for a not-so-old used big-boy=20
machine, with the caveat that if/when I need support/parts, they'd=20
charge me $fewK just to register the machine with them and they talk to=20
me. :(  But that would mean physically going to sellers to see the=20
machines operate, which may not work for you.  Also, some of these=20
big-boy machines require 220V, which is not always on hand here in the=20
US, depending on where I'd put it.

For you though, I'd stick with the desktop machines... they'll easily do=20
what you want.  Factor in a couple thousand for a stencil printer (get a=20
decent new or used one as that will save you a lot of aggravation), a=20
few thousand for a decent reflow oven, and put $15k towards one of the=20
Neoden-type machines.  Also, avoid IR reflow ovens -- get a basic=20
conveyor oven to save yourself a lot of aggravation.

Cheers,
-Neil.



On 5/9/2020 11:21 AM, Isaac M. Bavaresco wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I understand your point, but my budget is between US$20,000.00 to
> US$30,000.00, so I can't afford a Fuji, Essemtec, Panasonic, Samsung, etc=
..
>
> My requirements are very low. If I can assemble 20 boards a day I call
> that a win. Indeed I don't need a machine with a lot of heads, my
> limiting factor is minimum number of feeders, but both come together.
>
> It would be great if some manufacturer had a slow machine with just one
> or two heads. Indeed, the reason for NeoDen and YingXing machines having
> so many heads it is because they can't change nozzles, so some of the
> heads are reserved for placing just one or two parts per board. The
> number of heads available to assemble most parts may be greatly reduced.
>
> That Charmhigh machine that changes nozzles could have just 4 heads and
> perhaps be faster than the others.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Isaac
>
>
>
> Em 09/05/2020 11:25, louijp@gmail.com escreveu:
>> Isaac,I do not know those chinese P&P machines, as all my work life I wa=
s partial to Fuji. They were the best value for the money.Before purchasing=
 any equipment, try to find a shop/plant using what you're looking to buy. =
Ask also for references from the supplier.He should be happy to put you in =
contact with happy users.That what I was always doing before buying new SMT=
 lines.One of my quality test was what I  called the Nickel test. I would p=
ut a nickel (5 cent US) standing on its edge while the machine was running.=
 Fuji always passed as they are built for long use without vibrations. Very=
 few companies could compare. Another test was feeder change time, as this =
affect your production because feeder change is down time.But at that time,=
 I was spending $20 million a year in SMT lines, so I had to be careful wit=
h my investment.
>> Just a few thoughts
>>
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
>>  =20
>>    On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 9:33 AM, Isaac M. Bavaresco<isaacbavaresco@gma=
il.com> wrote:   Dear All,
>>
>>
>> I'm planning to buy a pick and place machine and the Chinese ones seem
>> to have improved a lot recently.
>>
>> Machines from the big brands are extremely powerful and precise, but
>> also extremely expensive too.
>>
>>
>> Some time ago, NeoDen started offering a cheap P&P machine but it was a
>> little too small and seemed to be directed to hobbyists. It did not
>> support traditional feeders and did not have machine vision.
>>
>> For some time, while NeoDen was struggling with its hobby machine, other
>> Chinese brands started offering nice looking machines, superior to NeoDe=
n's.
>>
>> Now NeoDen is selling the new NeoDen 8, that supports feeders and vision=
..
>>
>> The two other companies that I found and sell nice machines are YingXing
>> and Charmhigh.
>>
>> The NeoDen 8 machine has 8 heads, 10 cameras and supports 80 feeders,
>> but it doesn't have automatic nozzle change.
>>
>> Charmhigh offers machines with 4 to 8 heads, 6 to 10 cameras and support
>> for 30 to 100 feeders. The two biggest machines, (6 and 8 heads),
>> support automatic nozzle change. The 8 heads/100 feeders machine is two
>> expensive, about twice the price of the 6 heads one and the competitors.
>>
>> YingXing offers machines in the same range as CharmHigh, but they don't
>> have auto nozzle change.
>>
>>
>> I'm pending to the Charmhigh machine with 6 heads and 60 feeders,
>> although I need a little more than 60 feeders right now. To overcome
>> that problem, I think I could put some of the biggest parts on trays, so
>> it would free a lot of space for narrower feeders.
>>
>> The main point that directs my choice it the automatic nozzle change and
>> the support for all the existing feeder widths.
>>
>>
>> Does anybody know any of these machines? Do they really can be used in a
>> professional assembly line? How about precision and durability? Anywhere
>> else to look for?
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Isaac
>>
>>
>>

--=20
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