> TANSTAAFL! I never understood this description of an N machine, which is on DePalma's site and also in an old folder of documentation I have, produced by one of his NZ partners, Bruce Cathie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Cathie "DePalma is quick to point out that the N machine is not a perpetual motion machine, that mythical contraption long sought by many frustrated inventors. "The perpetual motion machine is only supposed to run itself. It could never put out five times more power than is put into it. Perpetual motion schemes used conventional energy sources, whereas the N machine is a new way of extracting energy from space." I always believed that one point of an over unity machine, up to 500% if recall for an N machine, was that some of the excess energy produced can be used to run it. My guess is that by not calling it a perpetual motion device, DePalma would not raise the hackles and eyebrows of many skeptics Joe --=20 http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist .