On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 04:07:35PM +0200, Chris Roper wrote: > Thanks BAJ, >=20 > Interesting thoughts. > You are spot on about old hardware except you overestimated RAM, most of > the machines are WIN XP with 512K. May want to think about switching such machines to an optimized Linux distribution. >=20 > Bootloaders are a given and at present I am pursuing the ChipKIT bootload= er > and MPIDE. Good. > I have looked at other forms of BASIC and have a few installed for testin= g > but so far the Arduino environment has generated most interest from the > teachers. The question is the per student price point. It looks like clones are priced in the $10-15 USD per unit range without the onboard USB to serial. >=20 > Interesting thoughts on FORTH, I have a copy of Lee Brodie Starting FORTH > sitting on the shelf above my bench but never even considered it for this > application. > I will look into it further. It's actually a pretty nice interactive development environment for embedded systems. For the PIC what's needed is both a way to compile test words in RAM, then a way to commit those words to flash once they are complete. My current system that one of my students developed runs on the enhanced 16F series chips. The primitive kernel is done. The compiler and outer interpreter are missing. Currently I'm using it in a standard development mode where I assemble the application with the kernel then use my bootloader to write it to the chip. Just havn't had time to improve on it though. BAJ >=20 > Cheers > and enjoy your vacation. >=20 > Chris >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 29 July 2013 15:20, Byron Jeff wrote: >=20 > > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 12:43:45PM +0200, Chris Roper wrote: > > > Looks interesting but I don't see anywhere to just download and try = it > > on > > > an existing PIC32. > > > > It's not too terribly interesting. Embedded tokenized BASIC interpreter= s > > have existed in various forms since the birth of microcomputers. Even o= n > > the PIC the Basic Stamp was floating around 15 years ago. I've implemen= ted > > a couple of systems in this format. What I finally learned is that it c= an > > be greatly simplified by changing the language. Specifically using the > > FORTH language actually makes such systems doable in embedded systems > > environments. > > > > > Pity as I am busy researching ways of introducing the PIC32 into > > education > > > in an easy and affordable way for 3rd world countries that don't have > > large > > > budgets. > > > > It depends quite a bit on the existing infrastructure as to how this ca= n be > > done. The biggest problem is that embedded systems simply do not have > > screens, keyboards, and mice to facilitate interfacing for development. > > Bootloaders makes it pretty simple to dismiss the programming hardware = on a > > per student basis, as long as the student has another machine to serve = as > > the interface. But there can be challenges if those machines are much o= lder > > and are unable to support current development environments, even if tho= se > > environments are free to use. > > > > So for the sake of argument, I'm going to presume that the interface > > hardware can serve as a dumb terminal and nothing else. Think along the > > lines of a throwaway (to us) PC with 1G of RAM running a pentium level = CPU. > > > > A FORTH environment is completely self hosted on the target. The interf= ace > > hardware serves nothing more than a dumb terminal with possible externa= l > > file storage. A serial interface is used for development. > > > > A sample FORTH that could be thrown on a PIC32 in short order is pFORTH= : > > > > http://www.softsynth.com/pforth/ > > > > Written in C, pFORTH can be easily adapted to embedded systems that hav= e no > > more library support than send/receive a character. No filesystem, or > > dynamic memory support is required. It's written in standard C, and > > supports ANSI standard FORTH. > > > > I haven't tried it, but from the look of the reference manual it can be > > compiled for a PIC32 after setting some compilation paramters, dropped = onto > > a chip, connected to a interface machine via a serial interface, and se= rve > > as a self hosted development target. > > > > Just my two cents. > > > > Quick Note: I'm on vacation and I have my vacation e-mail on. Please re= move > > my E-mail from any replies. I'd hate to have my vacation program spam t= he > > list. Thanks. > > > > BAJ > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > On 29 July 2013 11:04, cdb wrote: > > > > > > > Resend - as it didn't seem to get through the first time. > > > > > > > > I've just been looking at the website www.byvac.com. In a similar = way > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > Muvium Java environment for Pic works, this is a an Interpreted > > > > Basic/Compiled Function using a PIC32 called ByPic. The BASIC progr= am > > > > language being installed on the PIC itself. > > > > > > > > The Basic is held in RAM where via an editor it can be written and > > compiled > > > > > > > > > > > > to Flash RAM on the fly. They state that the PIC can run each > > instruction > > > > in 2.5us. > > > > > > > > Communication with the PIC is via a serial connection > > > > > > > > This means there is no writing code, simulate, program cycle. Most > > hardware > > > > > > > > > > > > functions are precompiled, so to access for example the ADC, you j= ust > > type > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > adc_init(channel_number) > > > > x=3Dadc_get(channel_number) > > > > > > > > And your done, whilst in RAM you can make as many alterations to yo= ur > > code > > > > and test it out in PIC, once all is OK you then flash it to flash > > memory. > > > > > > > > It is aimed at beginners and naturally they have their own Arduino > > style > > > > development boards. > > > > > > > > Looks interesting. > > > > > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > -- > > > > cdb, on 28/07/2013 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive > > > > View/change your membership options at > > > > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist > > > > > > > -- > > > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive > > > View/change your membership options at > > > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist > > > > -- > > Byron A. Jeff > > Chair: Department of Computer Science and Information Technology > > College of Information and Mathematical Sciences > > Clayton State University > > http://faculty.clayton.edu/bjeff > > -- > > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive > > View/change your membership options at > > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist > > > --=20 > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive > View/change your membership options at > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist --=20 Byron A. Jeff Chair: Department of Computer Science and Information Technology College of Information and Mathematical Sciences Clayton State University http://faculty.clayton.edu/bjeff --=20 http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist .