Thanks John and John My overall feeling is that I'm pushing s*** uphill I think primarily because the appreciation - or need - of machines isn't there like it used to be For example, you could build something like a chess robot, but what self-respecting kid plays chess or board games anymore ? Unless there's an app for it The world of the electronics beginner now has no moving parts What I might do is look at what they're doing with their (insert epithet) Arduinos and see if there's an application that can be done better or expanded upon Otherwise, well it's just more motors for me then Joe --=20 http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist .