On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 09:21:54AM -0700, mcd@is-sixsigma.com wrote: > Byron Jeff wrote: >=20 > > There are millions of pages of Microchip PIC discussions/projects that > > use the 16F84[A]. With a preponderance of them, newbies (and the OP > > stated that) are not really aware that they are for the most part > > obsolete. So by asking >=20 > I've said this before (a long time ago) ... > For a newbie, wanting to learn PIC16 assembler, there is no part that > comes close to the 16F84[A]. It is ABSOLUTELY the right part for that > first project. Certainly, it is hard to defend for a second project, but > for the first project it is unequalled. >=20 > In developing my Elmer 160 course I of course exchanged many, many emails > with people just starting out. The whole concept of the microcontroller > is intimidating, and all the other parts have additional complexities > that, while useful for the experienced programmer, are terrifying to the > newbie. Yes, the enhanced PIC16 parts have nice features, the 18F's even > nicer. But if you are approaching microcontroller development for the > first time, no 8-bit part presents a lower barrier than the 84. >=20 > That being said, in this day and age I would question the choice of any 8 > bit part. The OP said he was a newbie, and presumably also a hobbyist. I= n > 2012 it is hard to defend the 8 bit parts when the 16 bit parts cost > barely any more, are infinitely more capable, far easier to use, and have > much better tool support. The only downside to the 16 bit parts is that > the sheer weight of the datasheet can be a little intimidating. >=20 > Sure, when you are making a million of something the price difference is = a > big deal. But for a one-off, why not spend an extra fifty cents or a buc= k > and get a much more capable and easier to use device? >=20 > As a hobbyist, OP may well want to learn PIC16 assembler, and for someone > dipping his toe into that particular pond, especially if he has a limited > background in microcontrollers, the PIC16F84A is the right tool for the > job. For other jobs, not so much. Your last point is of course the problem. One of my former faculty members that I worked with called it "love what you learn syndrome". When you learn how to use a hammer, everything looks like a nail. In a lot of tech systems, folks make it easy to get started, because they want to attract novices. The problem is few regular users remain novices. They fairly quickly become intermediate and advanced users. But they take the view even as intermediate/advanced users that was presented to them as novices. It colors their view of things for a significant amount of time. What I've learned to do, and I teach students PIC programming, is to give a gentle introduction with a forward view. I explain that the parts we are using (in this instance 16F1938s) have a lot of facilities, and that as they need new items, that they are available. But I also caution that it's not necessary to memorize a 500 page datasheet. It's a comprehensive reference manual that desribes every aspect of the usage of the part. But few projects need every available tool. So it OK to learn it as you go. The key is to implant an understanding that facilities to help are avaailable and that before lauching into writing everything by hand, check to see if a hardware resouce is available. The problem with the 16F84 is that this is not possible. It has such a low facilities bar, that as soon as you get to the second or third project, that a novice is stuck with the choice of either changing parts, or trying to write the facility in software. So I disagree with the assertion that it's appropriate for the first project, because rarely is the first project the end of the discussion. It's better to pick a part that has a high growth ceiling, with a gentle introduction (i.e. no paging, limited banking, only required setup of ANSEL/TRIS registers) until growth requires looking at additional facilities. I know there's no right answer to this and that its all opinion. But I feel that directing novices with a larger overall view will help them in the end, even though there';s a bit more setup in the beginning. Just my 2 cents. BAJ >=20 > --McD >=20 >=20 > --=20 > http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive > View/change your membership options at > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist --=20 Byron A. Jeff Department Chair: IT/CS/CNET College of Information and Mathematical Sciences Clayton State University http://cims.clayton.edu/bjeff --=20 http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist .