All, Got hold of a low-end scope. These graphs are taken in storage mode, single trace. They are separate attempt connects because I only have one probe.Bot= h are y=3D2V/div, x=3D0.1 ms/div Clock:- http://www.flickr.com/photos/20561828@N00/5672332478/in/photostream= / Data:- http://www.flickr.com/photos/20561828@N00/5671766839/in/photostream/ I also had a look at the MCLR/VPP. The ICD3 pulls this line to ~13V ish for 5ms, then lets go. Other than that, i am no further forward. I have tried two brand new 12F629's, and i've updated MPLAB to 8.66 (which seems to reprogram fpga in the icd3 and so on) but nothing seems to work. I have changed my circuit to be powered from the ICD3 but this had not made any difference. thanks slip --=20 http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist .