As Bob B adumbrates - OT looks like a good place for this - for as long as it can be made to last. >> The claims being made here are blatantly untrue on several counts BUT >> it would take a substantial amount of techmnical understanding to be >> sure of finding the truth. > No Russell. It would take a 10 second google search to determine this > product doesn't work. No technical knowledge required. No Herbert ... :-) ie, no, I've already noticed that Gargoyle exists and am moderately aware of its utility, as you are probably aware :-) - so you can assume that I made my statement with full awareness of the resources that are POTENTIALLY available to people. As I know (or hope) you know, a significant proportion of internet users would have significant difficulty in using the internet to obtain certainty re such claims. And the comments in the Q&A show that people who SHOULD have a far far better idea than they do have very little clue at all in such things. * But, you having had you comment on what I should think, and me having had direct response, there is little chance that any further "free exchange of ideas" thereon is liable to move either of us from our current positions. I'm happy enough to discuss such things ad nauseum, as you will have noticed :-) - but it almost instantly becomes a matter of social perspective, personal rights, personal property and more. If we start down hat track we'd both have to put ourselves on moderation, and probably end up taking lin, Vitaliy, Gus, Joe and bob with us. Hmmm. Maybe the idea has merit. ... :-). But, let's just say that we are sure to disagree where such lines should be drawn and that you'd be liable to find my ideas manifestly ludicrous, and I ... :-). No? R * One could and SOME certainly will argue that such people ... {various options with various degrees or none at all of of ought-to ness / eugenic undertones / harden up / Darwin / other ... } ... --=20 http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist .