As long as I was invited:

I joined this list relatively recently.  I joined to discuss PICs, EE,=20
etc.  And maybe a little OT friendly banter.  What I found instead is is=20
rudeness, immaturity, dishonesty, and (very) thinly veiled political=20
discussion.

I am a moderator on a political forum, and I know how hard it is.  You=20
can't possibly write a set of rules that cover everything.  The rules=20
are a guideline, and the moderators are the judges.  It would be nice if=20
the posters could act like adults, but that's not going to happen, trust=20
me.  The moderators have to be the adults.

You can't jump on somebody because they say "I don't like the USPS=20
because it's tax subsidized" or "I don't like Fedex because it's=20
non-union" (assuming it's within the context of 'shipping'), but when=20
the discussion degenerates, you need to say "enough", and posters need=20
to know it's time to knock it off.

Kerry


RussellMc wrote:
> Hat: No
>
>  =20
>> OK, Russell, now I'll put on my admin hat.
>>    =20
>
>  =20
>> If you don't want to hear me say the things I say, it's real easy.
>> 1. NO POLITICS on the Piclist.
>> 2. Don't hit reply.
>> Bob
>>    =20
>
> Indeed.
> But, as I noted:
>
> 1. Our rules are too vague, and so allow vague interpretation of the
> meaning of "politics" at the whim of list admins.
>
> 2. Economics <> politics, although they often hold hands. Many people
> talk re the former on list and are allowed to do so with no comment at
> all by admins. Admins even join in or even originate economic themes,
> with no suggestion that this is wrong.  But ...
>
> 3. If Vitaliy speaks about  anything that has any economic content,
> even peripherally, this is "often" deemed to be politics and thus in
> violation of the "no politics" requirement.
>
> While I find some of Vitaliy's economic ideas naive and quaint or even
> occasionally somewhat distressing (army boots, height, age ...  :-) )
> it's not apparent to me why he should not be treated the same as other
> people are on such matters.
>
> There is no doubt* that Vitaliy knowingly pushes the limits on such
> things on occasions, if our rules were somewhat bettert cast he would
> have less opportunity to do so.
>
> 4.  One solution is to stomp on everyone here who has any inclination
> to talk on anything vaguely economic - while that's one way to foil
> the dread Vitaliy,
>
> - Stomping on things seems unacceptable, whether it be list members or ot=
her.
>
> - it also would debar a lot of the existing conversations which
> clearly people are interested in and which happens now without any
> problems.  About the only time we have problems with such
> conversations is when Vitaliy has the temerity to join in, when they
> become  by definition political and so proscribed. A somewhat more
> consistent and less confusing approach would be nice.
>
> We need an adult and acceptable and generally accepted interpretation
> of what "politics" means
>
> IF ALL THE APATHETIC  ADULT CARING LIST MEMBERS DON'T ADD SOME VIEWS
> ON ALL THIS  ABOUT NOW YOU'LL END UP WITH BOB'S VIEW THAT POLITICS IS
> ANYTHING THAT VITALIY SAYS plus some stuff about donkeys and bears.
>
> SPEAK UP NOW, OR BE HAPPY WITH THE CONSEQUENCES.
>
> _______
>
> And as I said:
>
> "Robust discussion trickling along the borders of politics and
> economics, to make a point, or even tacking perhaps too deeply into
> one or other, may well be fine enough if it has some deep point - or
> may not. However, ad hominem attack and personal abuse are completely
> different matters and are also quite independently not allowed by list
> rules.
> Unlike the present excessively vague rule re "no politics", the
> meaning of "hate" at a personal level has been far better established
> in past exchanges."
>
> Nothing that was said in response addressed that in any way.
>
> You can't deal with rule A being poorly defined by knowingly violating ru=
le B.
> Attempting to do so is liable to be nonproductive.
>
>
>
>                Russell
>
> * A certainty. There's only way to be certain about such things. Think
> about it :-)
>  =20



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