On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 16:39:40 +1300, "RussellMc" said: > Hat: No >=20 > > OK, Russell, now I'll put on my admin hat. >=20 > > If you don't want to hear me say the things I say, it's real easy. > > 1. NO POLITICS on the Piclist. > > 2. Don't hit reply. > > Bob >=20 > Indeed. > But, as I noted: >=20 > 1. Our rules are too vague, and so allow vague interpretation of the > meaning of "politics" at the whim of list admins. We expect a certain level of intelligence and courtesy from the membership. Part and parcel in that expectation is that they will respect our wishes when told to modify their behavior. > 2. Economics <> politics, although they often hold hands. Many people > talk re the former on list and are allowed to do so with no comment at > all by admins. Admins even join in or even originate economic themes, > with no suggestion that this is wrong. But ... If an admin or member objects then it will be looked into. Is there a complaint about someone else? I am not aware of any such complaint. =20 > 3. If Vitaliy speaks about anything that has any economic content, > even peripherally, this is "often" deemed to be politics and thus in > violation of the "no politics" requirement. I don't want to get into the specifics of political parties, but when I see talking points that are used by politicians in an economic discussion, that's politics. Also, after the number of warnings he has had previously, him discussing economics is not be a good idea. Also please note that his contribution about USPS to the "best shipper" thread was partisan and incited Gus to carry the torch even further. > While I find some of Vitaliy's economic ideas naive and quaint or even > occasionally somewhat distressing (army boots, height, age ... :-) ) > it's not apparent to me why he should not be treated the same as other > people are on such matters. Maybe because others don't say the kinds of things he does, nor have a history of continuing after warnings. > There is no doubt* that Vitaliy knowingly pushes the limits on such > things on occasions, if our rules were somewhat bettert cast he would > have less opportunity to do so. The rules are clear enough. Plus, annoying the admins is not the smartest course to take. =20 > 4. One solution is to stomp on everyone here who has any inclination > to talk on anything vaguely economic - while that's one way to foil > the dread Vitaliy, Most list members have no problem talking about things without spouting talking points. The "best shipper" thread is a perfect example. The prices and delivery times, border issuse, etc, were being discussed, and then Vitaliy decides to thrown in a political talking point about the USPS. So the discussion was great until Vitaliy decided to turn it into a platform for his political opinions. =20 > - Stomping on things seems unacceptable, whether it be list members or > other. It depends on your definition of "things". There are things even you would agree require fast stomping. > - it also would debar a lot of the existing conversations which > clearly people are interested in and which happens now without any > problems. About the only time we have problems with such > conversations is when Vitaliy has the temerity to join in, when they > become by definition political and so proscribed. A somewhat more > consistent and less confusing approach would be nice. At this point I think Vitaliy should not contribute to conversations that are likely to cause problems. That seems an easy solution. > We need an adult and acceptable and generally accepted interpretation > of what "politics" means That's where the "adult" part comes in. If everyone thinks about how diverse the Piclist membership is, with an understanding that we, especially in the US, are living in extremely partisan times, then the interpretation of "what is politics" becomes much easier. > IF ALL THE APATHETIC ADULT CARING LIST MEMBERS DON'T ADD SOME VIEWS > ON ALL THIS ABOUT NOW YOU'LL END UP WITH BOB'S VIEW THAT POLITICS IS > ANYTHING THAT VITALIY SAYS plus some stuff about donkeys and bears. >=20 > SPEAK UP NOW, OR BE HAPPY WITH THE CONSEQUENCES. Russell, what do you expect to gain by this? What I am trying to get you to understand is that if an admin thinks something is against the rules, it probably is against the rules. I am in the US and I understand the political atmosphere here better than you, so my threshold for "unacceptable" political speech is much lower than yours. And frankly, no comments from membership is likely to raise that threshold in me. This is the PIC Microcontroller Discussion List, not a political forum. If politics bothers me, and I am an admin, I am going to do my best to stomp on it. If some members don't like it, well, that's the way it is. I am reminded of a post several weeks ago that contained a lot of rude language quoted from a movie. I gave a warning to the member, and there was also a complaint from someone who was mentoring teenagers and how distressed he was that this was one of the reasons he could not recommend the Piclist to them. I realize it's difficult to have a list of 2000 people and not have some chaos. But if everyone were to show respect for the feelings of others and not try to push their "freedom of speech" upon the list, toes will not be stepped on and we can work toward our common goal, to be a community of engineers and students and scientists and technicians. To that end, I really do not wish to know the political affiliation of any of the members of the Piclist, just like I do not want to know their sex, race, or religion. I apologize to all the list members for all the strong statements I have made publicly over the last two days. I only did it in order to cram my message of community down your throats.=20 Best regards, Bob --=20 http://www.fastmail.fm - Access all of your messages and folders wherever you are --=20 http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist .