> We really should just click on delete when no engineering but moron-ing > inside instead of analysing that all over again and again. People may quote (and already have) "sticks and stones ... but words will never hurt me" and similar BUT it's not true. Different people react differently and some are severely impacted in physical ways by Olin's in the face approach THE major issue is the fact (and it is a fact), that Olin's input does considerable real-world damage to an ongoing and significant number of people. Some may be argued to be deserving - but this is by no means always the case - and people neither know many are effected or what %age are never known about publically. Real people act in a wide range of ways - some are thick skinned and relatively impervious to rough abuse and bullying. Others are much affected by the same treatment. Only an inconsiderate incompetent moron with an inexcusably low grasp of the unavoidably wide range and vast complexities of the human psyche would wish, let alone attempt to demand, a one size fits all approach, demande that everyone feel as she feels, behaves as he does, and fail to acknowledge other's diversity. Over many years, and as recently as yesterday, I have been contacted by a steady trickle of people who advise that they lurk and listen, but don't ask or post, specifically because of the way Olin has treated them. Or that Olin's input has been extremely traumatic for them. The fact (based on his statements) that Olin doesn't care that he hurts such people, is pleased that he does hurt such people, is pleased when he manages to drive such people away and thinks that the world is best when it suits him completely places him firmly in the moron camp by his own definition. The fact that his claimed target is people who are lazy, who don't do basic homework and who look for a handout rather than a handup is not the point. While it is moot how roughly the real rogues should be handled there are too many genuinely people who who don't deserve by any measure to be treated as they are - based on any criteria that most here would accept. I am concerned when I hear people suggesting giving Olin some special rope because of this capabilities (he takes all he gets and more already), or that we should warn all newcomers to be wary of him and ignore him (I've spent far far too much time offlist over the years (Olin agrees :-) ) doing this sort of damage control due to Olin and not being fully successful.) This takes no account of the very real damage that is done to some people that Olin doesn't care about, seeks to inflict and welcomes. Protestations that this is NOT his aim per se only reinforce the moron (by his definitions) appellation. We all get it wrong on occasion - the only thing that saves me from achieving moron status before breakfast some days is that I work very late, sleep very late and skip breakfast - and sometimes I still manage it in my sleep. Occasional failures are part of human nature.. The thing to avoid is the terminal state where you don't learn, don't listen and don't care. That's the entirely understandable thing that Olin wants to help people avoid. But he has to take due account of the differences of his fellow man or he'll walk the path himself in the process of trying to "save" others. I've often enough wished that I could effectively share the occasional comment that comes my way about the unseen impacts. Alas by their very nature such things stay undisclosed - and I'd be surprised if there were not a greater number of people who never say anything or just leave. By allowing or condoning him damaging people as certainly as if he had broken a finger or two or kicked them in the shins, or worse, sometimes much worse, is to make those who support his behaviour jointly responsible for the trail of damaged people he leaves behind him. Russell --=20 http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist .