I was thinking about this "dark energy" and "dark matter" astronomers are chasing. It seems like a kludge to fill the gap between our equations and observation. Gravity should be causing the universe to accellerate inward, but yet observation shows it is accellerating outward. Dark energy is the common name for the discrepancy. But what if it's all gravity, just that it doesn't work the way we assume at large distances? The 1/r**2 relationship between gravity and distance appears accurate over our solar system. There things move fast enough relative to our distance from them that we can measure their motion from direct observation over time. At large distances I know we can measure the radial velocity from the red/blue shift of known spectral lines, but do we have a way of measuring accelleration directly? How much of our accelleration assumption of distant objects is based on the assumption that gravity follows 1/r**2? We can see that gravity is holding galaxies together, and apparently holding clusters and super clusters of galaxies together, but how do we really know it works beyond that? Even if we can see gravity has a attractive effect on the range of a supercluster of galaxies, do we have any independent way of mearuring the accelleration of the galaxies we assume are gravitaionally bound to make quantitative measurements of gravity at large distances? I'm really asking since I don't know. I have never heard of independent verification of 1/r**2 of gravity at large distances, but that of course doesn't mean it's not there. A simple 2D analogy often used to explain gravity is a streched rubber sheet. You put a ball bearing on the sheet, and it makes a depression such that other smaller things roll towards the ball bearing. In this analogy, gravity is strongest nearest the mass causing it, and extends to infinity as a ever weaker attractive force. But what if a water bed is a better analogy? In other words, it's a zero-sum game in the long run. It still makes the same depression locally that follows the familiar 1/r**2 law, but that turns out to be a approximation that is good only for the small distances we have been able to measure gravity over. Eventually it flips over to become a repulsive force (the average level of the water bed is always the same, if you push down one place, other places go up to maintain the global average) at large distances before tailing off. Or it could do any number of other things while still following 1/r**2 closely enough over the relatively small distances where we have observed it to be so. This is the same kind of concept as Netwon's laws being very good approximations as long as you stay well below the speed of light. Newton's laws worked well enough for what we could observe directly in our solar system. What if gravity is like that too, where 1/r**2 is a good approximation for small distances but other parts of the real equation dominate at large distance? Do we have any observations that tell us it doesn't? As far as I know, accellerations of distant objects is deduced from gravity, not independently measured, so that's obviously no way to check gravity itself. Are there thought experiments we can perform much like what Einstein did to deduce relativity without direct observation? What assumptions could be made, like Einstein's speed of light is constant for all observers, about gravity to perform such thought experiments? Does anyone know of any accessible papers that talk about this stuff in terms someone who doesn't have a PhD in astrophysics can understand? I'm sure this has all been thought of and dismissed before, but I'm curios now and would like to delve into the reasons a bit more. When I look up stuff like this I either find nothing (gravity is simply assumed to be 1/r**2 and everything based on that) or the stuff is way over my head so I have no idea what it's saying. ******************************************************************** Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products (978) 742-9014. Gold level PIC consultants since 2000. -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist