> > That's NOT an encouragement to find creative alternatives - the word is
> > really quite unimportant apart from the result it has often enough for it to
> > be better avoided.

> I am lost. RTFM is the problem, not the concept, but we are *not*
> encouraged to find alternative ways to express the same message?

Sorry. The joys of conveying concise meaning in relatively few words.
An art that I an less well versed in than some :-)

I meant, not an encoragement to find new creative new ways to cause
offence without using proscribed words.

ie RTFM per se causes offence.
But an F free word or phrase to cause the same level of offence should
not be sought to replace it.

eg note the genuinely light hearted exchange a day of so ago where
several members called each other morons and tossers and um (that was
me) er, something else :-)..., and also expressed doubt re the worth
of one of the members to the list, ALL without any use of 'bad' words.

>  ... I seldom say so directly to a student, although
> I sometimes say "if you asked that question on internet you would be
> RTFM'ed - and rightly so".



Yes. One cal almost get away with that with a student.
May not work quite so well on a client or your manager :-).

I think we both understand the others general drift.
I also hope that we can manage to both avoid the more extreme winding
up of newcomers as an art form that we have seen in the past by some
AND satisfy most of the desires for beginners to quite rapidly
understand the level that the list is meant to work at. For a while,
in cases of doubt, it may require all of us to read the manual
occasionally :-).

FWIW- and I've said it often enough, but it doesn't seem to get
universally heard - I, too, am keen for newcomers to think
intelligently, learn rapidly, fit in well, use available resources
well and understand what is available and how to find it, sit at the
feet of the masters when sitting is most productive and generally
become useful and happy members of this community. And, to rapidly
demonstrate their own mastery and capability when it's there, asap. P
for mastery varies from weeks through years to sometimes never. That's
life.

Interestingly, one of the most rambunctious stubborn, pig headed
newcomers of relatively recent times who seemed to utterly refuse to
bow or to learn very rapidly, also happened to come with a reasonably
high degree of mastery attached, albeit mostly in one area. A nice guy
despite all this - although many probably failed to notiuce  ! :-).
The noise generated by the punchups and screamings very largely
overshadowed the contributions that were made and probably diminished
what would otherwise have been made. I'm not saying at all that his
pig headed insistance on flouting reasonable behaviour should have
been long tolerated, but I suspect he was one of those for whom
different training methods than those most visibly tried may have been
more effective. We were (almost) all young once :-),



                         Russell
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