Missed the tag.. John Ferrell W8CCW "A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves." -Edward R. Murrow ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Ferrell" To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 10:31 AM Subject: Re: Is RTFM necessary? If not, is it useful? >I confess: I sometimes ask dumb questions. > I don't always want to take the tedious path that others have already > walked > to get to my objective. Usually I want to know both the answer and how to > find it the next time. I take the risk of ridicule each time I seek the > easy > way out. > > I have discovered that the RTFM answer is best ignored. Whatever the > reason, > the one who offers this is not a reliable source. Just ignore him or her. > I > think many people just like to assist other people when they answer a > request. Some are just trying to show off their perceived superiority. It > really does not matter. > > Most of the time I am just a lurker. I do offer a comment or two whenever > I > think it might save some one else a little frustration. I admit, some of > the questions are too flakey for a response. I just ignore them! > > John Ferrell W8CCW > > "A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves." > -Edward R. Murrow > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "M. Adam Davis" > To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." > Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 3:45 PM > Subject: [OT]: Is RTFM necessary? If not, is it useful? > > >> On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 2:15 PM, Bob Blick wrote: >>> There's a reason why the term "RTFM" came into existence. There's got to >>> be a way to tell someone to look something up for themselves >> >> I disagree - there doesn't have to be a way to tell people to look it >> up themselves. Take, for example, this programming question website: >> >> http://www.stackoverflow.com >> >> Peruse a few questions. None contain answers that consist soley of >> "RTFM" or even google search links. >> >> I don't see a downside to requiring that responses be in the form of >> an answer (rather than a reference to the answer - include a reference >> if one exists, but at least give the answer first). >> >> If someone is peppering the list with questions and it annoys you, let >> the admins know - they are the appropriate people to discourage users >> from overusing the list. >> >> Perhaps this can be analogy-ized: >> >> You have glasses of water on a table in front of you. There is a well >> 20 feet away behind some brush. Someone comes up and asks for a >> drink. Do you: >> 1) Give them a glass of water >> 2) Tell them they have to go to the well >> 3) Give them some water, and tell them where the well is >> >> I agree that option 1 can possibly be considered a poor choice in the >> long term - if you aren't there, they go thirsty. But keep in mind >> that there's about 2,000 people with tables full of glasses of water, >> and even if you aren't around, they are _very_ unlikely to go thirsty. >> It's not a bad option. >> >> Option 2 isn't unreasonable, but it's rude/impolite/arrogant to have >> the item they need, and instead take the time to tell them you are not >> going to give it to them. It's not really wrong to take option 2 - >> they'll still get what they need if they also have the tools to use >> the well. >> >> Option 3 seems to be the best of both worlds. They slake their thirst >> immediately, and know that they can go to the well in the future. It >> turns option 1 into a learning experience, and eliminates or at least >> reduces the offense of 2. >> >> In some cases you don't have water (ie, don't know the answer) but you >> know which well to go to among all the wells available. Giving a very >> precise reference or pointer is a great course of action. But >> pointing in the general direction of all the wells, and saying, "The >> water you need is among those 30,000 wells. I suggest you start >> sipping." is rude and inconsiderate. Giving them directions to the >> exact well, or even narrowing it down is good, but saying, "It's in an >> app note on microchip" doesn't really make it easier to find the right >> information. In this case I concede that giving an indirect answer >> may be better than none at all, but it can be presented so much better >> than, "Leave my table and find the well yourself" (ie, RTFM) >> >> In a recent example, a list member asked a very specific set of >> questions about a particular protocol that is partially documented on >> the internet. He received several responses that answered his >> questions point by point. He received one response that said, "You >> should have searched the wells first. Here's directions to a well," >> but unfortunately that well did not answer even half of his questions. >> Another answer was essentially, "I can't believe you didn't search >> the wells." with absolutely nothing else of use. >> >> But the interesting thing is that anyone who has spent any significant >> amount of time on this list knows: >> >> The list itself is a wellspring. >> >> Yes, one could go ask google, and one could go ask the datasheets, and >> one could go ask wikipedia, but when one can get all their answers in >> one spot in significantly less time, then why should we punish or >> belittle them for saving time and frustration? In the example above >> there were questions that cannot be found on the internet (crazy, I >> know, but sometimes the internet doesn't know everything), AND anyone >> paying attention to the list for several months knows there are some >> crazy-smart people on here that know a LOT about the particular >> subject in that example. >> >> "It's in the datasheet or app note" or "Google knows the answer" is no >> longer useful to the beginner: >> - Manufacturer websites are very difficult to find the needed information >> - Google can be _very_ hard to use if you aren't using the right search >> terms >> - Once the information is found, and beginner may have significant >> difficulty understanding where their specific answer is amongst the >> 300 pages of datasheet. It may seem easy to us, but even the simpler >> Microchip datasheets are daunting to even college educated EEs new to >> a particular device/company/industry. >> >> If one doesn't have time to give very clear directions, AND one knows >> that very few others on the list will be able to help, then a quick, >> "I know it's in the datasheet, but can't remember what the answer is, >> or even where in the data sheet it is. Datasheet can be found by >> searching '16C54' at microchip.com" _is_ better than nothing, and >> gives more information than "RTFM". (I actually had someone ask a >> 16C54 question today - talk about a blast from the past!). >> >> But I don't see a valid reason to wave one's hand in the general >> direction of the eighty thousand wells and say, "It's over there >> somewhere, start sipping." At best it's noise, and at worst it's rude >> and inconsiderate. >> >> So my arguments against answers that consists only of RTFM are: >> >> A) An answer now, and specific directions to the well is a far better >> option when possible. >> B) There is no reason to push people away from the list for even >> simple beginner questions, telling them to visit another well. The >> list should be that well, while also helping them understand, over >> time, where and how to search other wells. >> C) Beginners are better off when the specific well is pointed out >> rather than a group of wells - searching is hard enough when one knows >> what one is doing, nevermind when they don't know what they're doing. >> D) Contributions to the list should add to the total group knowledge, >> ability and skill. Answers consisting of "RTFM" add nothing. >> >> So this is my response to Bob's call to action: >> On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 2:15 PM, Bob Blick wrote: >>> I think a little thinking needs to be applied. The Piclist has >>> lots of helpful and smart people. Let's use them all and grow our >>> way out of this. >> >> All IMHO, of course. >> >> -Adam >> -- >> http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive >> View/change your membership options at >> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist >> > > > -- > http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive > View/change your membership options at > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist > -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist