I guess that it's time to me to wade into this debate. I'll open with what
I believe is a Dilbert joke:

Unix guru: Here's a nickel kid. Go buy yourself a clue.

For the record, I side with Olin on all accounts. You cannot and should not
legislate niceness. Sometimes people need to be told (and possibly even
rudely) that they are wrong, and that indefinite moderation is creul and
unusual punishment. 

You're dealing with a cultural and generational issue here. I got a chance
to hear a local Psycology professor speak a couple of weeks ago on the
Millenial generation of students. She listed a host of common traits that
they simply do not share with previous generations:

- Self centered
- A coddled sense on entitlement.
- Rejecting of authority
- Feels alienated when chastised

And that's exactly what you see here. Most engineering/CS folks work well
with authoritarian meritocracy. In short, if someone knows more than you
do, shut up and listen to them.

But when the new Rennaissance people who think they know everything about
everything come along, they bristle when told:

"You're a moron. Sit down and listen."

and so here we are. 

Olin is right on point that they will never learn any better until taught.
The PicList and its longtime inhabitants are the valued resource.

I've been around for each and every one of the blowups. The firefight was
never ever the initial comment nor the response. It was always the attempt
to try to mediate the issue on the back end that caused the flamewars.

The correct response to a newcomer who feels slighted should be:

"Olin has been here for years. He's a working engineer with years of
experience and tons of products. If you really want to learn, sit down and
listen."

And trust me if newcomers got that from all of us each and every time,
there would be many less issues.

This whole scene is childish, and frankly I can't help but wonder why Olin
even bothers to put up with it.

You keep telling him he is wrong and that he needs to change.

To me it's like a breath of fresh air.

For more on the subject and understanding the culture take a read of Eric
S. Raymond's "How to ask questions the Smart Way." It outlines all of these
points. And frankly anyone asking questions here who hasn't read it should
be gently told to STFU and RTFM.

You can find it here.

http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Here's my suggestion for resolution to this issue:

1) Any member who has a record of posting to this list for more than a year
is no longer subject to moderation at any time. Ever. Period. That includes
Olin.

2) Any member with less than a year is subject to moderation.

3) When a blowup occurs (stop trying to stop them), which inevitably
happens when a new member full of themselves come in and try to take over,
moderate them! Strong, swift, limited time. Teach them that this is a list
where people can speak their mind without having to go nuclear.

Now one of two things will happen. New members will learn to understand the
culture of this list and its members, or they will leave. In either case
harmony is restored.

The only response to "You moron, go RTFM and STFW because if you took 5
minutes you'd have the answer and wouldn't be wasting our time." is

"OK, thanks for telling me that."

I think I've typed enough.

BAJ

On Fri, Mar 05, 2010 at 02:51:24PM -0500, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Bob Blick wrote:
> > There's a reason why the term "RTFM" came into existence. There's got
> > to be a way to tell someone to look something up for themselves
> > without causing offense or starting a flame war.
> 
> I'd hate to see more and more rules, but maybe a suggestion that if you're
> going to respond with RTFM, you are encouraged to give some guidance as to
> where in what M.  Again, I don't think this should be a rule because it
> would be too burdensome to have to find the appropriate M and look up the
> applicable passage in all cases.  However, if you can and are willing to, it
> would be considered a plus.
> 
> Otherwise I see no need for some sort of sugar coated RTFM.  As you say,
> that term evolved for a reason.  It has now become pretty much a standard.
> It doesn't make sense to use a different one just on the PIClist.  Even if
> you did, it would quickly devolve to have the same meaning.  For example, is
> there anyone that actually thinks a "pre-owned" car is different from a
> "used" one?
> 
> > This is a complicated mess we are in and I think a little thinking
> > needs to be applied. The Piclist has lots of helpful and smart
> > people. Let's use them all and grow our way out of this.
> 
> OK, I had nearly given up.  I've put forth my ideas.  I'll wait around for a
> while to see what others come up with.
> 
> 
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