On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 2:15 PM, Bob Blick wrote: > There's a reason why the term "RTFM" came into existence. There's got to > be a way to tell someone to look something up for themselves I disagree - there doesn't have to be a way to tell people to look it up themselves. Take, for example, this programming question website: http://www.stackoverflow.com Peruse a few questions. None contain answers that consist soley of "RTFM" or even google search links. I don't see a downside to requiring that responses be in the form of an answer (rather than a reference to the answer - include a reference if one exists, but at least give the answer first). If someone is peppering the list with questions and it annoys you, let the admins know - they are the appropriate people to discourage users from overusing the list. Perhaps this can be analogy-ized: You have glasses of water on a table in front of you. There is a well 20 feet away behind some brush. Someone comes up and asks for a drink. Do you: 1) Give them a glass of water 2) Tell them they have to go to the well 3) Give them some water, and tell them where the well is I agree that option 1 can possibly be considered a poor choice in the long term - if you aren't there, they go thirsty. But keep in mind that there's about 2,000 people with tables full of glasses of water, and even if you aren't around, they are _very_ unlikely to go thirsty. It's not a bad option. Option 2 isn't unreasonable, but it's rude/impolite/arrogant to have the item they need, and instead take the time to tell them you are not going to give it to them. It's not really wrong to take option 2 - they'll still get what they need if they also have the tools to use the well. Option 3 seems to be the best of both worlds. They slake their thirst immediately, and know that they can go to the well in the future. It turns option 1 into a learning experience, and eliminates or at least reduces the offense of 2. In some cases you don't have water (ie, don't know the answer) but you know which well to go to among all the wells available. Giving a very precise reference or pointer is a great course of action. But pointing in the general direction of all the wells, and saying, "The water you need is among those 30,000 wells. I suggest you start sipping." is rude and inconsiderate. Giving them directions to the exact well, or even narrowing it down is good, but saying, "It's in an app note on microchip" doesn't really make it easier to find the right information. In this case I concede that giving an indirect answer may be better than none at all, but it can be presented so much better than, "Leave my table and find the well yourself" (ie, RTFM) In a recent example, a list member asked a very specific set of questions about a particular protocol that is partially documented on the internet. He received several responses that answered his questions point by point. He received one response that said, "You should have searched the wells first. Here's directions to a well," but unfortunately that well did not answer even half of his questions. Another answer was essentially, "I can't believe you didn't search the wells." with absolutely nothing else of use. But the interesting thing is that anyone who has spent any significant amount of time on this list knows: The list itself is a wellspring. Yes, one could go ask google, and one could go ask the datasheets, and one could go ask wikipedia, but when one can get all their answers in one spot in significantly less time, then why should we punish or belittle them for saving time and frustration? In the example above there were questions that cannot be found on the internet (crazy, I know, but sometimes the internet doesn't know everything), AND anyone paying attention to the list for several months knows there are some crazy-smart people on here that know a LOT about the particular subject in that example. "It's in the datasheet or app note" or "Google knows the answer" is no longer useful to the beginner: - Manufacturer websites are very difficult to find the needed information - Google can be _very_ hard to use if you aren't using the right search terms - Once the information is found, and beginner may have significant difficulty understanding where their specific answer is amongst the 300 pages of datasheet. It may seem easy to us, but even the simpler Microchip datasheets are daunting to even college educated EEs new to a particular device/company/industry. If one doesn't have time to give very clear directions, AND one knows that very few others on the list will be able to help, then a quick, "I know it's in the datasheet, but can't remember what the answer is, or even where in the data sheet it is. Datasheet can be found by searching '16C54' at microchip.com" _is_ better than nothing, and gives more information than "RTFM". (I actually had someone ask a 16C54 question today - talk about a blast from the past!). But I don't see a valid reason to wave one's hand in the general direction of the eighty thousand wells and say, "It's over there somewhere, start sipping." At best it's noise, and at worst it's rude and inconsiderate. So my arguments against answers that consists only of RTFM are: A) An answer now, and specific directions to the well is a far better option when possible. B) There is no reason to push people away from the list for even simple beginner questions, telling them to visit another well. The list should be that well, while also helping them understand, over time, where and how to search other wells. C) Beginners are better off when the specific well is pointed out rather than a group of wells - searching is hard enough when one knows what one is doing, nevermind when they don't know what they're doing. D) Contributions to the list should add to the total group knowledge, ability and skill. Answers consisting of "RTFM" add nothing. So this is my response to Bob's call to action: On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 2:15 PM, Bob Blick wrote: > I think a little thinking needs to be applied. The Piclist has > lots of helpful and smart people. Let's use them all and grow our > way out of this. All IMHO, of course. -Adam -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist