Russell McMahon wrote: > I'm probably not going to try to address that on list. > I have said much on the general subject on list in the last few weeks > and it tends to be either ignored or mis interpreted (not by > you)(mostly :-) ). Much has been said but absolutely nothing was done and no direct questions or requests were responded to. If the answer is "No, you're not going to get off moderation ever, get over it", then you should at least say so so that I can unsubscribe now and stop wasting time. This is a community, but the admins largely didn't participate in the dicussion. That's not a good way to lead a community. Herbert did bring up some logistical points, but never responded to the answers. This lack of willingness to even discuss list policy is not a good policy. > I'd be very happy to have this sort of dicussion with you and the > admins in general offlist. List policy should be discussed amongst all that care about such things. As I have said before, I think it's wrong that one has to open the floodgates of OT to discuss list policy. That alone sends the wrong kind of message. On Usenet for example, discussions about a list are always considered on topic by definition. > *BUT* it is wholly unacceptable for newcomers to be treated in > the manner that you describe treating those in the workplace who you > consider to be morons. A moron is a moron, whether newcomer or not. But let's be clear here, it's not morons we're talking about, its people who don't show a little respect when blurting out a question. When you ask 2000 people for a favor (which is what you do when posting a question to the list), you have the obligation to do it respectfully and not too lightly. Of course we're here to help, and most people ask reasonable questions and get reasonable answers. That often leads to good discussions which is what this list is really about. However there are always a few who are too lazy to do even a modicum of homework before asking 2000 people for a favor (remember the guy this morning asking questions about OBDII that would have been answered by any reference?). Telling such ingrates to RTFM is a prefectly reasonable answer. They shouldn't get offended by that, but if they do and go away, no loss. Remaining silent would work if everyone did it. However there are always a few wannabe experts that finally see something they can answer and can't help themselves trying to look smart. As a result, the OP never knows that better answers could have been had. If you don't tell them why you're not going to answer, they'll never know. Worse yet the action will appear accepted by the community, so even more of it ends up being encouraged. Can't you see this just doesn't work? > Time after time after time after time after > time (at least) you have been asked to leave the children alone, help > them if you can and wish, ignore them if you think them unworthy of > your talents, Again, that's no solution at all. Nothing is solved. > let other sat least try to make them a little welcome > and established and valuable members of the community. This only makes sense if you think newcomers deserve more slack than old timers. I think it's actually the opposite. Respect, and the slack that goes with it, is earned. Anyone coming new into a community should first get a sense for how things are done before engaging members. On a list like this, that means lurking for a few days or looking thru archives. It's neither hard nor time consuming to do this. > NOBODY else > wants to let people be lazy, for them to have free rides, for us to do > their home work and assignments for them, for them to endlessly ask > the list when gargoyle stands idle etc. Everyone wants the beginners > to help themselves. Yes, but how are those that are lazy anyway supposed to learn they made a mistake if you're not allowed to tell them? Even if 80% of the people decided to withhold their response because they felt the OP was too lazy, he'll still get a couple of possibly mediocre answers. How's he supposed to know that the other 8 answers were out there, were better, but were withheld because he did something wrong? > BUT time after time after time recurring you > absolutely demand to be entitled to beat them round the head, treat > them as morons and drive them off if they will not give you the > respect that you deserve Not that I deserve, that we all deserve. Let's remember that despite terms like "beat them round the head" the worst that happened is a lazy op saw some words cross his screen he didn't like. Let's also keep in persepective that this is usually said like "RTFM, DSxxxx Chapter yy section zz", or "I found the answer in 20 seconds with Google. So can you.". The reason people sometimes get upset about this is because it's true and hits home. And none of this is what you're really objecting too anyway. What you don't like is how some people react childishly and way out of line when they are caught being lazy or stupid. That's the real problem. Deal with that directly, not something you think may incite someone to cross the line when it itself doesn't cross the line. > But I'd personally > not want to see you let loose in the beginners enclosure until you > agree to simply leave them alone and let others with at least one > empathy bone do the training. I guess this is the basic philosophical disagreement. You think newcomers to the list should be allowed a period of forgiveness while they undergo "training". Newcomers know who they are and should tread extra lightly until they get a feel for the place and get a sense for what is accepted and what isn't. This is exactly what you and I and most reasonable people would do when entering a new community. You don't go in guns blazing. You get a feel for the place before asserting youself. That all follows logically from common sense and respect. Eventually you build up some respect (assuming you do good deeds) and get a little slack in return. The dynamics of newcomers to a email community are no different since it's basic human nature in both cases. > Letting you loose amongst the beginners > is so far a sure guarantee that we will see bleeding newbies crawling > for the exits. Only if they are arrogant ingrates, and then that's not exactly such a bad result. > But only if you are on a leash OR if you > simply agree in this area to leave people alone. That doesn't work for several reasons, one being purely logistical. Maybe you do it differently, but I process each post pretty much on its own merit. Yes I recognize a few handfuls of long term contributors and give them more slack (although they rarely need it), but otherwise its just too hard to keep track of who joined when and whether they have this newcomer status. Note that the corrolary to this is that anyone can redeem themselves. Keeping grudges makes no sense. If you don't agree on philosophical grounds, then just consider how much trouble it is to keep track of whom you're supposed to have what grudge against. > OK. There it is. On list. Where does that leave things? I think I've already outlined my proposal clearly enough, but in short: 1 - Be more tolerant. Someone may read some words about themselves they don't like, but they need to keep in persepctive what affect that really has on their lives. The true problem is people reacting to this way out of proportion. Don't shoot the messenger. 2 - Punish only what actually crosses the line, not what you think may cause others that can't restrain themselves to cross the line. 3 - Never moderate. Censorship is just wrong in so many ways. 4 - If you feel a offense truly needs to be punished (see #1 and #2) ban the offender **for a fixed and clearly stated time**. I expect most people will cool off after a day or two. ******************************************************************** Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products (978) 742-9014. Gold level PIC consultants since 2000. -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist