The original discussion got off-track, therefore I'm posting this under the 
tag the OP intended.

Herbert Graf wrote:
>> I can't help but agree with Olin. Ban*, don't moderate.
>
> All this theoretical talk is interesting, but let's step back a sec and
> consider a practical issue: how do you "ban" a person?

Simple: you prevent the person from posting, for a set period of time. You 
make the ban public, "So-and-so was banned for violating part X of the 
piclist rules. The ban will last Y days."


> Anybody can join this list, under any email address, under any name. How
> would a ban (or suspension as you are suggesting) work? How would YOU
> implement a ban?

You are forgetting that the main reason most people are willing to share 
their knowledge and expertise on this list FOR FREE is because they get 
something in return: status and name recognition. The fact that it's easy to 
change one's identity from a technical perspective, means nothing.


> The same can of course be said for moderation.

Of course. Why *doesn't* Olin simply resubscribe using a different email 
address to circumvent the moderation? See above.


> The
> difference is moderation hurts a persons ego far less then a ban,
> meaning fewer "retribution" acts.

I would argue (and Olin would agree) that message moderation (later in this 
post, just "moderation") hurts far more than a ban. The threat of a 
subsequent (perhaps, lengthier) ban is what would keep the "retribution 
acts" from happening.

The worst thing about moderation is that it is done in secret, by a single 
person, who may have strong biases and agendas. The person subject to 
moderation can simply "disappear", without anybody (except the admin elite) 
knowing what happened to him.


> Sure, we could restrict list membership, but that increases the work
> load on us admins. It also wouldn't really solve anything since how
> would WE determine that a new arrival is a banned individual? The answer
> is you can't.

So what's the worst case scenario? They resubscribe, then post and sign the 
post with their name. You ban them. Big deal!

How is this different from moderation? I insult a list member, you put me on 
moderation, and out of spite I resubscribe using an alias and post more 
abuse to the list.

The truth of the matter is, it just doesn't happen, for the same reasons 
Wikipedia does not become a useless collection of vandalism.


> The fact is moderation, as distasteful as it is, works. The list has run
> FAR smoother in the "time of moderation" then it did before.

Yes, if you mean it in the same sense that a police state runs "smoother" 
than a democracy.

However, ever since the policy had been implemented, I've had a number of 
ever-escalating run-ins with one of the admins, who actually said that he 
considers me his personal enemy. It only makes sense then that in his hands, 
message moderation is a tool that he uses to try to bully me. He threatens 
me in public and moderates in secret, inconsistently and unfairly.

Moderation affected Olin enough for him to consider leaving the list, and I 
believe that he really means it. I can relate.


> People may
> not prefer the solution, but I haven't heard of any other workable
> solution that has the potential of being more effective.

Olin proposed a solution that I support. Why do you dismiss it as 
"non-workable"?

The current policy of giving every individual admin the power to secretly 
impose message moderation is broken. It hurts everyone and doesn't help 
anyone:

- Since it's done in secret, the victim feels that the offender escaped 
punishment. He may try to "get even", or simply leave in disgust.
- The offender is less likely to contribute because he feels that somebody 
is always reading over his shoulder.
- The community is worse off because the phony "peace" comes at the cost of 
less knowledge being shared and the loss of members.

Who wants this kind of stability?

The solution that Olin and I are proposing, will be better for all, and will 
mean *less* work for admins -- you won't have to read and approve messages 
anymore.

Vitaliy 

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