I liked James a lot and any perceived flaws James
might have were certainly small in comparison to the
good deeds that he did and does.
Same for Russell.
and Olin.    and others.
Gus

> On Feb 19, 2010, at 11:39 AM, Vitaliy wrote:
>
> Olin Lathrop wrote:
> [snip]
>> Once we finally got rid of James, things got more reasonable.
>
> This is debatable. What you saw as "reasonable" I often saw as  
> unfair and
> hypocritical. However, in general, I agree with your proposal:
>
>
>> I think the right way to deal with people getting out of hand is  
>> twofold.
>> First and foremost, be tolerant.  Think about what harm is really  
>> done by
>> what someone at the other end of the internet said.  If someone  
>> thinks
>> you're being stupid and says so, does that really matter in the  
>> end?  If
>> he's right, you've learned a lesson.  If he's wrong, you can  
>> rebut.  As
>> long as its about the a action or the content of a message and not  
>> about
>> the person, there is no reason to get upset.
>>
>> Second when someone does get way out of line ("FU -------") be  
>> decisive,
>> immediate, public, but also temporary.  Decisive means you don't do
>> something half in or wussy.  You ban the offender.  Public means you
>> announce publicly that so-and-so is banned for this-particular  
>> offense.
>> This is very important as it lets everyone see what line not to  
>> cross, but
>> also that action is taken and there is therefore no need for anyone  
>> else
>> to do anything more.  Temporary is so that everyone can recover.   
>> It's
>> very unlikely that the person that said FU is going to do it again  
>> right
>> when he comes back.  Bans should last from a day or two to a week  
>> or so
>> for something serious.  More if it happens repeatedly.  If you look  
>> at the
>> archives, you'll see that the discussions about the list that James  
>> hated
>> so much were not actually in direct response to any offense, but in
>> response to his action towards one.  If such action is finite, then  
>> there
>> will be little uproar because the problem will be resolved by  
>> itself in a
>> few days.
>
> I think the key to making this work, is to have clear and simple  
> rules, and
> a simple set of consequences for breaking the rules (first offence:  
> 3 day
> ban, 2nd: 1 wk, 3rd: 2 wks, etc).
>
>
>> Anyway, there have been a number of times in the last few months  
>> where
>> I've seen bad advice given, incomplete answers, or there was a
>> particularly good answer I could have given.  I refrained from adding
>> value to this list under the current conditions.  You can't have it  
>> both
>> ways.  You don't get to treat me unfairly and still have me help  
>> you.  If
>> you look back at the archives, you'll see I used to provide more  
>> help than
>> most people here.  And yes, if I thought something was stupid I'd  
>> say so,
>> just like it works in Real Life.
>
> Many people would argue that given the choice between advice  
> delivered as an
> insult, and no advice, they would choose the latter. You need to  
> realize
> that there is a difference between "straight talk" and calling  
> someone a
> moron. In Real Life, you can get punched in the nose, regardless of  
> how much
> you think the victim deserves it, or how highly you think of yourself.
>
> Nonetheless, if the rules are applied consistently and fairly, I  
> would be
> strongly in favor of abolishing message moderation and replacing it  
> with
> your system.
>
>
>> If you want Russell's idea of sugar
>> coated reality, then I'm not the guy.  Unfortunately it's not easy to
>> notice missing content since you don't know what could have been
>> mentioned.  I find Russell's excessively PC and wordy style quite
>> annoying.  He probably finds my brief and brusk style annoying.  The
>> difference is I don't take offense by that and certainly wouldn't  
>> put him
>> on moderation for it.
>
> Russell acts as a counterbalance to a certain other admin who is  
> neither PC
> nor softspoken. And I think he would be in favor of increasing the  
> freedom
> of speech on the PICList.
>
> Vitaliy
>
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