Our 2002 Mercury Cougar has traction control, that's great when accelerating on ice, but when corning hard in a short radius on dry hard pavement, the vehicle un-weights the front inside (I didn't say lift off the pavement), wheel, with power applied out of the corner, there may be slight slippage of the inside wheel. The traction control will pulse the engine ignition which results in a slow down. With the traction control off, you can power smoothly out of the corner. Not from the year, this one one of the first years traction control was offered in a vehicle, and probably today they are much improved. Today most high performance cars have switches to turn off traction control/ABS. Our Ford Bronco full size SUV has anti-lock brakes individual front and one sensor/control for both rear wheels. The four wheel drive is hard gear/chain/drive shafts to all wheels with multiple disc friction clutch limited slip differentials front and rear. On ice the best stopping is in 4WD. With driveline tying everything together, it's all wheels working together, either all rolling or all sliding. But try turning sharp at low speed, with or without any power or braking, and it may well go very straight, needs caution at low speeds (less than 10 mph). Oh, one other thing. If the front tires are not exactly same size, the steering will pull to one side when the front hubs are locked. When rotating tires before winter, need to check thread depth and select which tires will be on the front. It's amazing how many people don't know how to properly use 4WD, and even fewer people, including dealer sales and service departments, know how it actually works. Tamas Rudnai wrote: > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 3:45 PM, rolf wrote: > >> 1. even skilled drivers make mistakes, and there are pathetically few >> drivers who have the skill in the first place. I would venture that none of >> us on this list are skilled enough to perform such precision driving all >> the time... >> > > Totally agree, even F1 drivers smashes to the rubber wall... > > >> If you have ever experienced the shudder of ABS, then you are not skilled >> enough to outperform it.... >> > > Slightly disagree here :-) You do not know the right pressure till you > skid... What a skilled driver do is that when it is blocked they > release the pedal and press it again -- same thing what an ABS would > do. ABS does this much faster than any of the driver could do, no > question about that. However, what I claim is that ABS sometimes kicks > off even when it would not needed -- like that uneven surface where > the wheel bounces on and off the surface for a very short time. > Obviously the wheel blocks immediately when it is in the air, so the > ABS kicks off, and when it touches the surface again you have no break > power. By the time ABS lets you to break again the wheel bounces off > again and the whole time virtually you have no break power -- feels > like driving on an ice. > > I had more problem with this than stopping on an icy or snowy surface > -- I am from Hungary where we have proper winter, -5, -10 is average, > but sometimes it goes as low as -20, -25. I know, I know, it is > nothing to compare with the winter in Canada (my grand parents and my > uncle were living in Calgary, Alberta) :-). > > Tamas > > > >> oddly, F1 banned the use of ABS on the F1 vehicles because it gave the >> drivers too much advantage, causing them to brake later in to corners, etc. >> If ABS enhances the abilities of the most skilled drivers in the world, who >> earn millions by driving on the edge... then I would be a fool to say that >> I can do better. >> >> Rolf >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 05:56:44 -0700, Forrest Christian >> wrote: >> >>> Having lived for the past 15+ years in a state (Montana) where adverse >>> driving conditions are a way of life for a large chunk of the year, I >>> can say that I'm definitely familar with ABS vs non ABS. >>> >>> With a few exceptions, driving in snow/ice (and I guess normal driving >>> as well) is all about retaining "adhesion" to the road surface. By >>> adhesion I mean that the tire treads and the road surface are moving >>> together (or I guess opposite to each other). Any skid/slide in any >>> direction means you are unadhered to the road. I should also mention >>> that I do use some words like stuck in their 'adhesive' meaning below - >>> so be aware. >>> >>> The reason why remaining adhered to the road is important is that >>> without that adhesion, you have no control of the vehicle. It goes >>> where it wants to, no matter where you turn the wheels. it should also >>> be noted that once adhesion is lost, it is quite hard to get it back. >>> All of the rules such as "turn your wheel into the skid" and similar are >>> all about trying to get the wheels re-adhered to the road. >>> >>> So, we're talking about braking here. In a Non-ABS vehicle, if you hit >>> your brakes really hard (or even barely in some conditions), the tires >>> lock up, and become unstuck from the road. As a result, you loose >>> steering, and all control. It is really easy to get into a skid in an >>> non-abs vehicle. Just hit the brakes on packed snow and ice. Your >>> wheels will lock up, even briefly, and you'll end up in a ditch. A >>> good driver can and will get used to how much pressure and/or in what >>> manner to apply it and will actually simulate the action of an ABS >>> >> system. >> >>> With ABS, it's harder to loose adhesion. Yes, sometimes conditions are >>> bad enough that even a slight tap will do it, and abs isn't fast enough >>> on some vehicles to handle it. But for the most part, braking an ABS >>> vehicle will always help. Yes, you can come unstuck doing things which >>> involve lateral motion - yanking the wheel, or going around a corner too >>> fast for conditions. But when it's braking which is involved, becoming >>> unadhered is a lot less of a concern. >>> >>> About the only place where ABS hurts is where you are trying to stop in >>> the shortest amount of distance. I'm not sure about dry-pavement, but >>> I know that in sand and snow and other situations where a locked tire >>> will tend to 'dig in', abs significantly increases stopping distances. >>> This of course has to be balanced with retaining the ability to actually >>> steer. In an ABS vehicle one should apply firm pressure and do what >>> they can to steer around the obstacle. Contrast that with a non-abs >>> system where one can either jam on the brakes, and hope they skid to a >>> stop before the obstacle, or try to apply appropriate pressure to the >>> brakes so that they can still steer around it. >>> >>> Personally, I'm much more comfortable in an ABS-equipped vehicle. It >>> allows me to do less thinking in an emergency situation - in all >>> situatitons the correct answer is hit the brakes and look for an escape >>> path to drive around the problem area. >>> >>> -forrest >>> -- >>> http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive >>> View/change your membership options at >>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist >>> >> -- >> http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive >> View/change your membership options at >> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist >> >> > > > > -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist