That was 30 years ago. If we had the $$$, the roll cage would be 20% of what it weighed then. Okay, maybe I am exaggerating. I guess I will run some calculations once I get some typical performance specs from autogiros. This is not going to be a stunt machine. Far from it. This design will be more like a wallowing tugboat. Gus > On Aug 4, 2009, at 7:10 PM, Carl Denk wrote: > > Experimental Aircraft Association. There may also be in the area, > local > clubs for various types of aircraft including Gyros. What did that > roll > cage weigh? Empty weight could be around 250 lbs., and a useful load > (everything else, pilot, fuel engine oil, roll cage, etc.) could be > another 250 lbs. This would be a maximum weight of everything around > 500 > lbs. This is all order of magnitude.My plane weighed 1168 lbs. empty, > 1900 lbs. maximum = 732 lbs. useful load, and if full fuel 52 > gallons @ > 6lbs./gallon = 312 lbs., leaving 420 lbs for people and luggage. > > AGSCalabrese wrote: >> I found two chapters in Denver that I will call. The website does >> not >> say what EAA >> stands for. >> Gus >> >> >>> On Aug 4, 2009, at 5:10 PM, Carl Denk wrote: >>> >>> Join the EAA local chapter, visit and talk to lots of aircraft >>> builders/pilots. You may call it cold water in your face, but I >>> speak >>> from the experience of building and flying a 200 MPH, 1000 mile >>> range , >>> 3 passenger aircraft for over 1000 hours in 11 years, and aways >>> landing >>> on a paved runway. Close friends have had most every type aircraft >>> including everything from gyro's to jets, and I became familiar with >>> the >>> issues of a variety of aircraft. We measured weight in ounces, and >>> big >>> wheels, cages, etc. are all weighed in pounds. Only 20% of those who >>> start building an aircraft finish it. I spent 3 years of going to >>> aircraft events, talking to people, studying before starting >>> construction, and that was after being a pilot for 30 years. >>> >>> AGSCalabrese wrote: >>> >>>>> Autogiro's have small wheels and expect a smooth >>>>> surface for a safe landing. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Not my autogiro ........ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Autogiros are very light weight, and a 2nd engine will be a >>>>> considerable performance penalty >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Not if it was two engines running at the same time sharing the >>>> load. >>>> >>>> Why would a crash cage add much weight to the autogiro ? >>>> Materials have really improved in the last 10 years. >>>> >>>> Why would a triple redundant virtual panel weigh more than >>>> the traditional instruments ? And why would it be big money ? >>>> I don't think display panels are too heavy anymore. >>>> I can get lightweight, low power, processors like the sheevaplug >>>> cheep. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> http://www.airventure.org/ looks like a great suggestion. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> Yep, look what the government has tried, >>>>> >>>>> >>>> The day I can't out perform the government is the day I turn in >>>> my >>>> EE spurs. >>>> >>>> I really appreciate Russell's comments. Just the facts jack ; no >>>> cold water in the face. >>>> I am 58 years old and dying while screaming at the top of my >>>> lungs as >>>> the autogiro plunges to the earth is as good a way to go as any. >>>> My uncle died peacefully.... not so for the 40 passengers in the >>>> bus >>>> he was driving over Loveland pass. ( i am lying ) >>>> Best >>>> >>>> Gus >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Aug 4, 2009, at 10:10 AM, Carl Denk wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Sounds like a good starting place would be Oshkosh, Wisconsin to >>>>> see >>>>> what others have done as a starting point. Unfortunately the >>>>> annual >>>>> affair just ended. :( >>>>> http://www.airventure.org/ >>>>> >>>>> AGSCalabrese wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for all the responses. >>>>>> >>>>>> I would like to clarify some of my thoughts ....... >>>>>> >>>>>> #1 My mention of the balloon was misleading. I don't want a >>>>>> ballon >>>>>> for floating ..... I want a parachute that opens and deploys in >>>>>> one >>>>>> second. It seemed to me that in order for this to happen, the >>>>>> parachute must be opened with gas pressure. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> The Cirrus chute is opened with a rocket, but there is still a >>>>> period of >>>>> time to slow an aircraft that could be doing more than 200 mph >>>>> forward, >>>>> not to mention the downward vector. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> #2 I can see that flying between mountains that have not been >>>>>> sussed >>>>>> out ahead of time could be scary. I want to autogiro where the >>>>>> obstacles have all been cataloged. I want to create an autogiro >>>>>> corridor between Denver ( near Denver ) and Pueblo, >>>>>> Colorado . I >>>>>> don't want to fly more than 500 feet off the ground. My >>>>>> understanding >>>>>> of the glide characteristics ( which may be incorrect ) of an >>>>>> autogiro >>>>>> make it possible to pick short landing spaces and do a "flare >>>>>> landing". >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> I have flown several times between Denver and Pueblo. Other than >>>>> the >>>>> congested area, it's relatively flat with sagebrush and other >>>>> somewhat >>>>> sparse vegetation. Autogiro's have small wheels and expect a >>>>> smooth >>>>> surface for a safe landing. The flare landing, which in general >>>>> would be >>>>> a normal full stall landing, is still going to roll out at least >>>>> 50 >>>>> feet. On anything less than pavement, mowed grass or smooth dirt, >>>>> expect >>>>> a forward rollover. I would not want to be near with those blades >>>>> rotating just above my head. :( Even a larger plane, meant for >>>>> rough >>>>> landings including Piper Super Cubs and Otters and Beavers would >>>>> be >>>>> difficult to make an unscheduled landing in that terrain. A >>>>> retractable >>>>> landing gear plane would probably be safer bellying in with gear >>>>> up. >>>>> The >>>>> area is about a mile high, and the density altitude will reduce >>>>> performance by very roughly 50%, or twice landing takeoff >>>>> distances, >>>>> 1/2 >>>>> rate of climb, and one may find impossible to get off the ground >>>>> at >>>>> all >>>>> if the service ceiling (maximum altitude possible) is less than >>>>> the >>>>> density altitude. >>>>> >>>>> After taking a mountain flying class out of Colorado Springs, I >>>>> took >>>>> the >>>>> wife for a ride down toward Pueblo, around Pikes Peak, and down >>>>> the >>>>> valley by Woodland Park. Flying the Western mountains is different >>>>> than >>>>> the Eastern mountains. The West has generally wide flat bottomed >>>>> valleys >>>>> where a reasonably safe landing can be accomplished under control. >>>>> The >>>>> East usually has heavily wooded, steep sided valleys with a narrow >>>>> stream. There may not be anywhere within miles to even pick as a >>>>> good >>>>> landing site, even with a helicopter. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> #3 By adding a second engine perhaps I can reduce failure to a >>>>>> 50% >>>>>> loss of power and the ability to choose a "safe" landing. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Autogiros are very light weight, and a 2nd engine will be a >>>>> considerable performance penalty >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> #4 My intention is to make autogiro with a crash cage that >>>>>> survives >>>>>> 40 mph with 4 point support for the inhabitants plus a seat that >>>>>> is " >>>>>> locked " into the crash cage. I would want to protect for pieces >>>>>> of >>>>>> the autogiro flying around chaotically. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> More weight >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> #5 I want the autogiro to be able to shift to fixed wing >>>>>> flight in >>>>>> the air ( and back again ) and go from 80 mph ( 129 kph ) in >>>>>> autogiro >>>>>> mode to 140 mph ( 225 kph ). All of this this may be an >>>>>> unattainable >>>>>> dream .... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Yep, look what the government has tried, the Harrier, Osprey, and >>>>> with >>>>> all the homebuilts, there is nothing, and there are some very >>>>> sharp >>>>> aeronautical engineers out there. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> #6 I want a dual ( or triple ) redundant virtual instrument >>>>>> panel , I >>>>>> want GPS terrain maps digitally displayed , I want the rotor and >>>>>> stuff >>>>>> that could fall apart instrumented to a extreme degree. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> More weight and now big money. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> #7 Super dream ...... I want flat packs strapped to the chest >>>>>> and >>>>>> back of the passengers that activate in free fall or manually to >>>>>> create a "fall ball" around the user that slows their descent to >>>>>> the >>>>>> ground and then provides adequate cushioning to stop them safely. >>>>>> Maybe a new sport. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Need altitude for safe landing, need way to exit the plane safely. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Best >>>>>> >>>>>> Gus >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive >>>>> View/change your membership options at >>>>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> -- >>> http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive >>> View/change your membership options at >>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist >>> >>> > -- > http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive > View/change your membership options at > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist > -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist