I used kit81 for several projects for paying customers. No ICSP or debug (neither does my new picstart 2 with 18f97j60 it seems), uses a parallel port and cheap. Refers to itself as a 16f84 programmer but programs 16f628 ok with PICALL software. Cheers Justin -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist