>> I'm a professional electronics tech. >Just look carefully at the word professional. If you are >a technician then by definition you are not a professional. Really ???? That is a statement I would definitely take issue with, and if that was how a prospective employer saw me, then I would seriously consider if I should work for them. As Olin said in the EE thread, 'professional' means you get paid for the job, as your normal source of income. It is also taken to mean that you care about the result, and will perform to your utmost ability to do a good job. Far too often 'professional' is taken to mean having a university degree. While there are legal terms that can be used to back this up in the USA, it is certainly not a global expectation of the term. My first boss, who took me on as an apprentice, straight from secondary school, took the general attitude that he would sooner employ someone with the qualification that I gained, as an apprentice, than an engineering graduate straight from university, because those with my qualification had to show a specific length of time in employment at an appropriate facility relevant to their certification. Now, I appreciate that this is specific to the consumer goods/radio telephone industry that the company was involved in at that time, but there are still truths in this that I see around me even now, 40 years later. After that job I worked at a government laboratory where I worked with a guy who had a doctorate, and he freely admitted that he had come to appreciate the technicians around him - because they had the practical experience that he hadn't got through his education path. Even now, working in another government lab, in a different country, I see the same problem, with those with Doctorates and Masters - the people who are often considered 'professionals' - making stupid errors or coming up with impractical circuits, items where they should know better. The number of times I have come across items where a technician has stepped in and asked 'how is this going to be assembled' and has then pointed out how the design as laid out is impossible to assemble physically, has amazed me. Do you really feel that the people you have doing your PCB layouts are not doing a professional job ??? Do you really have people with University Degrees doing this, as that is what your comment that I quoted at the top seems to imply. Maybe the work you are doing is specialist enough that this is needed, but the other comments in your mail don't seem to say this is the case. -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist