>> Possibly the real-est 35mm camera (just) on the market >> http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canoneos5dmarkII/ ... >> Does *NOT* include an integral vertical (a real plus) > What is "integral vertical" ??? a) Vertical grip - feature to allow camera to be held naturally in portrait mode. Integral - Can't remove it. b) A 'nornal' 35mm camera is can usually be held in landscape mode in one hand with the shutter release under one's index finger. While it can be rotated into portrait mode while being held this way, the operation is unnatural and usually requires a two handed grip. While one often operates the camera two handed in either orientation, being able to 'wave it around essentially in one hand is a major operating convenience. A "vertical grip" is (usually) an optional add on to a "standard" camera that connects beneath the basic camera and allows it to be held in one hand (if your arm is strong enough) with the camera in portrait mode. Rather than just being a handle and shutter release these usually also go the whole hog and replicate various other controls. They then usually add a second hog as well and add a battery box or maybe capacity for two batteries. As they often plug into the existing battery box for mechanical and electrical connection they may either make the original battery box inaccessible or displace the original battery. In film 35mm cameras they usually also contained a motor drive. All up they add convenience but about never add to actual camera functionality. They also substantially increase camera volume and also add weight. The end result is a camera that gores from being a pig to carry around into being a big fat overweight oversized pig to carry around. If you are impressed by huge cameras or your subjects are then the addition is worthwhile. If the ability to use the camera with much more ease in portrait mode is a great bonus then it may be worthwhile. If having two batteries in the camera (or 3) is far better for you than having them in your pocket then it may also be worthwhile. If you want to carry the camera everywhere, have it as unobtrusive as a big camera can be etc, then being able to choose to add or remove the grip is a bonus. If you would like to carry the camera in a belt bag (front or rear) then an integral vertical grip is a major pain. Canon and Nikon and people who want to make cameras that are visually stupidly impressive build the vertical grip into their top cameras. The Canon EOS1D series is one such. The EOS 5D has resisted the temptation to do so. c.) An unnecessary piece of useful flim flammery built into some top end cameras rather than being an optional add on. Russell, -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist