*** Warning *** Boring WW2 "My tank / gun / barrel is bigger than your ... " follows. __________ General essence - The Firefly wasn't the biggest fastest best armoured WW2 tank made, but it had what was probably the pre-eminent tank gun of WW2. If it could see you first you probably died. If it could see you second you probably died. With the right ammunition and range it would penetrate 200mm armour at 30 degrees. With standard ammunition it would penetrate 130mm armour at 1000 metres at 30 degrees. It fought some classic battels with Tiger tanks where single Fireflys destroyed eg 3 Tigers with 3 shells at long range. It certainly built obsolescence into Tiger tanks. __________ > FWIW (and still arguably) the best tank to have at the end of WW2 was a > Sherman Firefly. > In the context of the thread (what thread ... ? :-) ) the Tiger was a > "Rolls > Royce", but the Firefly was a Bentley. The minis tended to get forgotten > very quickly. > I'm sorry, but i not agree. The Sherman / Firefly is very badly armoured, and win the battles only by outnumber and good coordination / use of radio communications. 1. As I noted, the Firefly was not capable of outnumbering anything initially as they could not make enough of them to meet demand so they used them with N other 'ordinary' Shermans. 2. No amount of coordination and communications was going to help. As I also noted, a Tiger tank could withstand a point blank shell from a typical British tank. And in fact the Firefly tended to be communications impaired during combat as the loader/gunner was also the radio opeator >From below - note the specific comment on the FF being non preferred t\due to its coms problems. " The final major change was the elimination of the hull gunner in favor of more 17 pounder ammunition, which was significantly longer than the 75mm shell and thus took up more room. However the hull gunner also doubled as the Radio Operator, so an armored box ( a 'bustle') was attached to the back of the turret to house the new radio, and the loader was to double as the radio operator. In action however it was to be found this situation was far from ideal, as the loader, who had to handle the much larger 17 pounder shell in a significantly more cramped turret would find it almost impossible to work the Radio in the heat of battle, and as a result coordinating with its fellow tanks would be more difficult during battle while he was busy reloading the gun. As a result Troop commanders responsible for a troop of 4 tanks including their own were discouraged from crewing Fireflies because of the impossibility of coordinating their entire Troop during a battle." 3. I'll not argue about armour or other secondary factors - it may not have survived a head on battle with a Toger - but that was what the other Shermans were for - the Firefly's overwhelming advantage, and the feature that made it a Firefly, was its gun. It was about THE best tank gun in WW2 - see below. " The main armament of the Sherman Firefly was the Ordnance Quick Firing 17 pounder. Designed as the successor to the British QF 6-pounder, the 17 pounder was the most powerful British tank gun of the war, and one of the most powerful of any nationality, being able to penetrate more armour than the Tiger I's 8.8 cm KwK 36, the Panther tank's 7.5 cm KwK 42, and the M26 Pershing's 90 mm gun. The 17 pounder mounted on the Sherman Firefly was able to penetrate some 140mm of armour at 500 meters and 131mm at 1000 meters using standard APCBC (Armour Piercing, Capped, Ballistic Capped) ammunition at a 30 degree angle, more than sufficient to defeat the German Tiger I and Panther tank at standard combat ranges. When supplied, APDS (Armour Piercing, Discarding Sabot) ammunition could penetrate some 209mm of armour at 500 meters and 192mm at 1000 meters at a 30 degree angle, thus in effect, almost every German tank at any likely range [4] [5]. However, APDS was not as accurate as APCBC ammunition, and being a sub calibre shot, the actual penetrating device was around 50mm wide, thus being less destructive after it had penetrated enemy tank armour than the 76.2mm APCBC shell. In any case, APDS ammunition was rare, with very little being available until late 1944." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_Firefly > Sherman was Mini, Tiger - Rolls, and Panter - it's a BMW :-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_Sherman 'When the man with a Tiger (or several Tigers) meets a man with 4 std Shermans, AND a Firefly, the man with the Firefly wins,' The above page gives a good account of how the Firefly was used in conjunction with std Shermans, why yhe Germans targeted them preferentially and what the British did about it. Extract only - "Despite being a high priority target for the Germans, Fireflies appear to have had a statistically lower chance of being knocked out than standard Shermans, and this was likely more due to how they were employed rather than the actual effectiveness of the attempted camouflaging of the long barrel.[1] Given the high value the British and Commonwealth commanders placed on Firefly tanks, a common tactic was for commanders to reconnoitre the battlefield before a battle to look for good hull down positions for the Firefly tanks. During the battle, Firefly tanks would stay behind in those position and cover the regular Shermans as they pushed forward, eliminating any enemy tanks that revealed themselves when they opened fire on the advancing M4s and only moving forward when the regular M4s had secured the area, or when they could no longer cover them from their current position. However, given the relatively unpredictable nature of battle, this setup was not always practical or possible, and many times, Fireflies were forced to engage enemies in the open where they could be identified. Despite this, the Fireflies increased firepower was much valued by British and Commonwealth tankers, and during many engagements, the Firefly proved its worth, knocking out the feared Tigers and Panthers at long range, as well as less formidable tanks like the Mark IVs and StuGs." See - I told you - boring. :-) It's a vast shame, needless to say, that people have to die for these toys to be brought into being. Russell -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist