Matthew Miller wrote:

> Even after petroleum has been transported somewhere the net energy
> available is still positive, with hydrogen this isn't true and may not
> be true for whatever fuel we use in the future. :(

Russell already responded to that, but just to stress the point: try to
make a /full/ balance of petrol, one that includes all resources, and
please tell me where there is a net energy gain. There are probably few
processes so inefficient as petrol use. The only gain is economic, and it's
only there because we think we can afford to waste so much (energy and
resources) -- and because much of the externalities are not paid for by the
producers and users (at least not directly, that is, factored into the
price).

Vitaly said recently "TANSTAAFL", and I agreed, responded something like
"but there are people eating other people's lunch, thinking it's free" --
was about economics, but applies here also :)

Gerhard

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