I moved this [OT]. On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 01:15:51 -0700, "Vitaliy" said: > I prefer to express my position as "government is a necessary evil" ( (C) > Thomas Paine). Why do you consider it evil? There are lots of people who participate in government and I can assure you the vast majority of them are not evil and do a good job. > Residents of certain cities (Killadelphia?) would argue that life seems > pretty risky now. At least back then, AKs weren't as common. Guns are protected by the Constitution, basically gun deaths are part of the package. If you want fewer guns, you need to choose a different country. > > There are plenty of places where government doesn't "take your money": > > US Virgin Islands, Monaco, Dubai etc but I notice you don't choose to > > live there. Why not, could it be there are other factors that are more > > important? > > Yes. As Cedric noted, some of the places limit one's freedom in other > ways. > Also, being able to visit family at least once a year (geographic > proximity) > is important. So living here is best, even with nasty taxes and big government. Funny, I expected you to say something like that. > However, one of the reasons I choose not to live in California or > Washington, for example, is because they have big governments. Arizona is > more business-friendly. If you were gay or part of a biracial couple you might find Arizona not so friendly. > May I ask what you do/did for a living? And why you think it's OK for the > government to take your money? I am not a selfish person. Taxes pay for things that society needs. Education. Helping crippled old black grandmothers, etc. In civilized societies we have certain responsibilities. I am a talented white male engineer. I will always be able to generate a decent income(assuming nothing debilitating happens to me). Not everyone is in such a good position. Do we ignore them? Exploit them? I give money to street people. That seems fairly uncommon, just a small percentage of people give money to the needy. How do I know they are needy? They're on the street begging for money, for God's sake! If taxes were voluntary, would you pay them? > But seriously, this is a bad example to support your argument. The cost > of > cleaning up the air was borne almost exclusively by the manufacturers and > the consumers (car buyers). Who else is going to pay? And it wouldn't have happened if there hadn't been laws requiring it. > All states obey the same regulations dictated by the EPA (they're based > on > CARB regulations). Enough time had passed since the regulations went into > effect nationwide (1996) so that vehicles in California pollute about as > much as vehicles in other states. FWIW, the air in Phoenix is cleaner, > and > there's definitely less smog than in LA. California has always led the fight against pollution. Recently the federal EPA blocked California's attempt to do more. And doesn't your company make a product that takes advantage of those 1996 regulations requiring a standard set of data protocols? How come market forces weren't enough to do such a simple thing as all car manufacturers agreeing on common data protocols? > Mind you, I'm all for clean air. I believe that in a limited number of > situations it is OK for the government to compensate for an externality, In order to do compensation they have to have some money to do that, and that means taxes and regulation. Have you suddenly switched sides and are now pro-taxation? "Limited number of situations" sounds like a pretty slippery slope towards big government :) > If the goal is to save energy, the incentive should reward people for > saving > energy, not buying inferior quality CFLs. Who said anything about inferior CFLs? I bought Philips for under a buck. > There are much better ways to create the incentive, for example: > > 1. Let the market price of electricity reflect its actual cost. The best > way > to accomplish this is to deregulate the energy sector. I call B.S.! Deregulation is what allowed Enron to jack up the cost of electricity to 100 times the market value. > 2. Give people vouchers, that can be used to buy any CFLs of consumer's > choice. All CFLs were discounted, instant rebates, no limit, no vouchers needed. > 3. Provide tax breaks. Poor people don't benefit from tax breaks, only rich ones like you and I. And again let me point out that I am not selfish, so I recognize that something that benefits people of my class is quite often unfair to those with less. > In general, it's a bad idea to encourage people to use a particular > technology (CFLs, catalytic converters, etc), it's better to align the > incentive as closely as possible with the stated goal. But those are both great technologies! How can you say that? Why not pick something stupid, like hydrogen, if you are going to make that argument? Cheeful regards, Bob -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Access your email from home and the web -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist