On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 7:23 AM, Apptech wrote: >>>> Didn't you even BOTHER ... >>> I am flabbergasted ... >> You can SAY ... >> I didn't know what 'locum' meant either... >> I'm sure all the n00bs ... > > I hope that we are all yelling at each other with our > tongues variably firmly in our cheeks and are all learning a > bit from each other even as we expound our points. I meant my "(All in good fun)" to be understood to be scoped for the whole thread. My tongue at least was certainly firmly in cheek. I understand the extremity in my response and it was calculated to highlight the extremity of some other responses. Successful? Probably not, but at least we can have a little fun in the meantime. > > I am. Or, I am trying to. > > I knew what I was saying when I said it, and I knew I'd get > some reaction, but I do somewhat regret not having softened > it down a bit to get a bit more of a wry response than a > heated one. > > I did think the 'locum' line was quite good (regardless of > whether it was :-) ), but I certainly didn't foresee the > aggro that would grow from it. My response was not meant to be aggro in any direct way, only a parody of aggro. > > My sincere apologies. I suspect that it does indeed give at > least some sort of insight into the newby question asking > scenario where after only a few exchanges we are all yelling > fairly loudly about the framework rather than the content. > Not that there is too much content here. > > Ah - I see this has a PIC tag. > I don't know if there will be a felt need to respond to any > response to this but if I do respond again it will be with > an OT tag. Others may use whatever tag seems best to them. > > I really would like us to be able to find a middle ground on > this. I certainly don't approve in encouraging lazy > behaviour and I do approve of encouraging people to learn > how to use the resources. But I do also feel that those with > thicker skin and more experience of being brutalised have > little idea of how bruising it can be to have people descent > on them from a height. > > Wouter's flabbergastion is probably felt by many a beginner > who HAS trolled (meaning 2.3) through the various data > sheets and then asked a question that appears unresearched > and suffered a royal carronade. Whatever. That's precisely the point, isn't it? > > I learn a little each time we do this. > I don't want to keep doing so until I'm 100 :-). Amen to that. I've already spent way too much time on this. Not sure why I care anyway, other than maybe memories of the confusion that I lived in for about the first 5 years of my time in engineering, and the realization of the perceptions a lot of people have about engineers and the desire to act as a sort of impedance match between that and the rest of the world. I think there's a sort of dichotomy here of attitudes about n00bs. Some of us want the n00b's experience to be easier than ours was. Others have a bit of the "I had to suffer through it, so should you" mentality. I'm obviously mostly in the first camp, but not to say that's the only right way. Certainly most of the profs I came across in engineering school had a touch of the latter flavor, with an almost religious zealousness of being against using modern tools to do math. Personally I'd rather dump the integrals into Mathematica or iterate a "close enough" solution in Matlab and get on with my life and getting a greater understanding of the larger concepts at play. But that is also precisely why I don't teach in an engineering program. With more specific regard to the topics on this list, I think some of us have the impression that if we answer a few questions before the person has read the whole datasheet that that person will never learn to read a datasheet or figure things out for themselves. I 1000% percent disagree with that. There will be no shortage of other stumbling blocks this person will face going forward, and having a little bit of early success with the help of a few people on this list or elsewhere will only encourage them to actually get to the point where they can and will read a datasheet for themselves and eventually actually start answering a few questions for other people. Have no fear, no amount of help that we can provide can take all the struggle out of learning this stuff from square one. Will some people take advantage of this and never learn anything? Maybe a few will try, but to assume that everyone who didn't read or understand every bit of information is playing that game is no less absurd than assuming that about Wouter for not understanding your 'locum' comment. My way has worked very well for me, and apparently every one else's is working for them. So that's about all I can say. Happy happy joy joy love puppies ice cream and all that good shit. Good day. -n. -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist