I'm willing to bet that everyone here has done something in their life wherein they realized they were only scratching the surface of what was possible, of what knowledge could be attained to master the domain, and were just fine with that. People do things all the time where they don't care about learning everything, but only want to know what is necessary to get the job done. And you've all probably asked people questions about said activity. Ever cook anything? Ever ask for help while doing so? Why didn't you go to culinary school? Why didn't you go to the library and check out a year's worth of reading and learn it yourself? Probably because you don't care and you don't have time to learn to that level. You just want to know what it means to "temper in the egg" and so you call your wife or mother or uncle or friend or whomever it is that might know. And unless they have the acidic attitude that's all too prevalent on this list, they were probably happy to help, realizing that you didn't plan to be the next Jean Georges, but you just wanted some freaking mac and cheese! Is that such a bad thing? Ever change the oil in your car? Ever do it without understanding how every component in the car works? Ever do it without going to the dealer and buying the full service manual before starting? Ever put up a website? Ever do it without reading all there is to read on all issues involved on technology and design to learn about every feature in the full stack from TCP to the human perception? I can guarantee some of you have done this, because I've seen the evidence. And good for you, you don't claim to be web designers, you just wanted a website. Given the extraordinarily low ratio of relevant content to bitching on this list, I would think that the admins and members would welcome any PIC question, even if it is a bit trivial, as a potential launching point into some sort of relevant topic. But instead it's a launching point for a bunch of tirades about how the members of the list are so far superior to every one else because they started learning microcontrollers back in 1946 and had to input their code through a switch bank after walking to work 12 miles in the snow uphill both ways, etc. Guess what? I don't care! I just wanted clarification on something that was unclear in the datasheet. If you want to get into a whose d**k is bigger contest, there are plenty of other people on this list who like to play that game. Count me out, I've got work to do, and I'm confident enough in the quality of that work that I don't need to disparage people with casual interest on the PIClist. Believe me, I'm at a point in all of this that I don't absolutely need any of the help provided by the list, but sometimes it's still nice to have people to bounce ideas off of when you're stuck and frustrated after a long day. Are the answers out there elsewhere? Of course they are. Ther 10F has like 40 instructions for chrissake. We're not launching a new Mars rover here (not even Olin, as far as I can tell). The answers to everything I've ever seen discussed on this list are probably out there somewhere or could be considered trivial to discover to someone with a lot of PIC-specific knowledge. There really aren't a lot of things possible and reasonable to perform on this platform that aren't. But sometimes it's helpful to have someone to ask, just so you can more clearly formulate the problem through expressing it to someone else. The only problem with this is with the people complaining, as far as I can see. It's not a time issue, because those people spend a lot more time bitching about stupid questions than they could ever spend deleting (or even answering) them. But look, I'm just one person. If you all would rather see more BS posts about Olin's moderation and bitching at newbies and non-newbies who forgot a few key details and didn't want to spend a couple of days reading a few hundred pages of datasheets (No, I've never read a whole PIC datasheet cover to cover and likely never will. GASP! Again, I'm willing to bet that none of you have read the full stack of docs on every programming language you've ever touched.) then that's your choice. I'd personally rather see more uC related content, even if the questions might be answered in the datasheet somewhere. I'll gladly help out a few newbies in exchange for the help I've gotten here and elsewhere over the years. That's just me. -n. On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:34 AM, Richard Seriani, Sr. wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "sergio masci" > To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." > Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:55 AM > Subject: Re: [PIC]: 10F200 General Purpose Register Addressing > > > > >> Yes there are lazy people but I have come to belive that many people that >> would like to use a cheap MCU like the PIC are simply overwhelmed by how >> much there is to learn. >> > [scrape, scrape, scrape - sounds of soapbox being moved into position] > > First, I changed my reply tag to OT because this thread hasn't had much to > do, directly, with PICs for a long time. > > I am pretty much overwhelmed by how much there is to learn about... brain > surgery, the legal system, that elusive MSEE, ... However, I never think to > post questions to a ... group trying to get a qualified ... to tell me how > to ... without doing a little research first. Is that a character flaw? I > also realize there are many fields which, while they may have held interest > for me at one time or another, are beyond my present educational level and, > possibly, my abilities. This is why, at 60, I'm back in school and, yes, it > is a lot of work and takes a lot of time. I still have a full time job, > home, and family; none of which I am willing to give up. Another character > flaw? > > I believe that part of the problem is that so few people seem to be willing > to accept the concept of delayed gratification. By golly, we want it NOW, we > want it to be FREE, and we don't want to put forth much effort to get it! > Instant answers; instant gratification through the magic of pharmaceuticals; > instant success. Oh, and failure is never your fault; it is, instead, the > result of someone else's actions. > > The fact is, not everyone is cut out to do everything they would like to do > in the time they have. In our feel-good society, we aren't supposed to tell > Johnny and Sally they can't be a (name it). Heck, we might hurt their > feelings. Instead, we promote them through school by lowering the standards, > or turning a blind eye to cheating, until they have a piece of paper that > says they are, in fact, a (...). Hey, why not? The only ones who suffer are > the occasional unlucky patient, client, consumer, etc. Right? > > By the way, one thing that scares me is that I have had students in > university electronics labs who have asked why they have to design, build, > and test circuits? Also, why do they have to write lab reports and take > exams? After all, in the 'real world', they only have to look this stuff up > on the internet to find circuits to use and they will have techs available > to put it all together and to do the testing. Hmm, I suppose I never > realized it was that easy. > > Looks like I need an attitude adjustment. Learning this stuff is far too > much like work. > > Richard > [off soapbox now; let someone else put it away. Oops. Sorry you tripped over > that, but it isn't my fault it didn't get moved. I was busy emailing Olin > for the well commented code and schematic for a PIC16F84A LED flasher > circuit to use for my senior project. Why hasn't he responded yet? Hurry up, > this is due tomorrow, darn it!] > > > > > > -- > http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive > View/change your membership options at > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist > -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist