On Mon, Jun 09, 2008 at 04:31:39PM -0400, Bob Blick wrote:
> I left the list a couple of months ago but recently decided to take a
> look at it to see if my feelings had changed.

Bob,

I am glad that you decided to give the list another chance.

> Seeing this current thread and traversing completely through it has
> caused my feelings to change but not in a positive way.

I've been wandering through it on and off too. It's certainly a circus.

> Olin is a busy man who is educated, intelligent, and fully employed. He
> does not market the piclist with his products or troll for customers. He
> doesn't help people in order to stroke his ego. He helps because he is a
> generous person.

And he's quite helpful.

> That's a lot more than I can say about the group of small-minded,
> hateful people who have been using this thread to trash him publicly.
> Some of you couch it in a long-winded preachy fashion and some of you in
> more grumpy ways. Some attempt to dissect him as you would a frog in
> science class. All are equally mean-spirited.

I agree there has been some of that. Most of the attacks seem to be
directed at the fact that quite a few folks here wants Olin to change his
behavior and Olin has been unwilling to comply.

But to do so by exhibiting some of those same behaviors, treating Olin
quite uncivilly, comes across as hypocritical and unproductive IMHO.

> Why is the trashing of Olin allowed to continue? Simple. Some of the
> piclist moderators are among the cruelest attackers.

Again it seems to be fueled by the frustration of the admins to have to
wrangle what they consider to be unacceptable behavior. Buy to let it drag
on and on... Sigh.

> Over the years, the piclist has changed. It's been dumbed-down.
> 
> Any topic seems to be allowed now in EE and OT. I'm speaking
> particularly of "announcement" and "newsy" posts. As if there aren't
> websites with tech news already. The piclist used to be a place where
> people posted questions and got answers. If you came up with a new
> algorithm or circuit you could post it and get a critique.

I believe that's why you signed off a couple of months ago. I've noted that
the practice of non Electrical/Electronic engineering topics under the EE
tag has continued. My understanding was that Russell is being brought up to
speed as a moderator and that eventually a new tag will be added. 

But as to your second point, communities do grow and change. With over 2000
active members, some shift is to be expected. The question is how to manage
that change.

> What's to be done? Like Olin, I am also an educated, intelligent, fully
> employed person who is very busy. I don't "need" the piclist. My ego
> doesn't need stroking. But I am willing to put some effort into fixing
> what I perceive to be wrong. Do I think this can happen? Unlikely, as
> those who think the piclist is fine the way it is won't like it. They'll
> probably need to leave the piclist completely although I am not
> interested in a hostile takeover. I'll need help, too, so I'd like to
> hear from people who think this is a good idea.

Can you clarify your proposal? I get from the above that two things are
wrong:

1. Public trashing of individual posters.
2. Non PIC and non electrical/electronic engineering posts in PIC/EE

Now a couple of questions:

1. Are you planning on censoring posts/topics in OT? The above discussion
makes it seem so.

2. How exactly do you propose to curtail the public trashing of individuals
on the list. Censorship? Moderation? Kicking offenders off the list?

The problem I see is that a mailing list isn't like a web forum where
moderators can move and/or delete offending posts. The options seem to be
more limited than that.

Any clarifications on these issues would be helpful.

> But I am offering to help so please take me seriously. Or publicly trash
> me. Since you're running out of ways to trash Olin, this may come as a
> welcome alternative.
> 
> I'll monitor the piclist for a little while and measure the response.

I'd just like to say for the record that I have issues with both censorship
and moderation of posts. It's my belief that trying to prohibit certain
topics and behaviors cause more problems than the topics and behaviors
themselves. The discussions on where Russell should post, and how Olin
should behave, and if Olin should be moderated, have generated thousands of
mail messages. The answer is not "Don't do that! Don't post that! Don't say
that!" IMO.

The answer is both communicating when someone comes across what they
consider unacceptable behavior, and having a place where even if the
behavior is unacceptable to some, it is still allowed.

Russell is working on becoming a moderator so that a new tag can be added.
Wonderful. Those who are not interested can unsubscribe from that tag.
Those who are interested can subscribe.

As for Olin being abrasive to new subscribers, just post and call him on is
when he does it. A simple "That post is abrasive. But he is correct when he
says that you should read these manuals for the answers. Welcome to the
list. We look forward to hearing more from you. I'd suggest ignoring
abrasive people." Should be enough. Not the "Olin, don't post that" tripe
that we get every time it happens.

Anyway that's my nickel. Personally I subscribe to everything and delete
uninteresting threads. Keeps my life simple.

Hope this helps the discussion.

BAJ 
-- 
http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist