Herbert Graf wrote:
> We had multiple cases where posts from Olin would result in vast flame
> wars.

If you look carefully and objectively, most ruckus was usually commenting on
admin actions to try to "fix" things, when things would have died down
quickly if just left alone.

> As was often the case, it wasn't exactly WHAT Olin was saying
> that was triggering things

Exactly.

> (although sometimes he did have personal
> attacks included), but how he said it. Olin can be very frank and
> direct, and
> due to cultural differences some saw this frankness as personal
> attacks.

I don't think it was cultural differences as much as people reacting
inappropriately when they got caught publicly doing something stupid.  Some
people instead of saying "oops" get defensive and attack the messenger.

Too many people on this list adhere to the silly notion that if you can't
say something nice you shouldn't say it at all.  It is certainly easier to
avoid being the messenger, but is less useful in the long run.  If you do
something that others perceive as stupid, wouldn't you rather know that than
being given content-free placitudes with everyone laughing behind your back?

> The final straw for us is we received messages from LONG time valuable
> contributors stating they were leaving the list because they were no
> longer interested in contributing to a list where Olin was. Due to
> Olin not being willing to modify how he responded to threads, the
> list was starting to loose long time contributing members that were
> capable of responding in ways that didn't inflame.

So now you have less content and even more people have left the list.  Take
a look at the number of posts per day on real PIC or EE related content now
and a few years ago.  People may say they want sugar coated reality, but in
the end they discover it's not actually useful to them.

> Olin has stated that as long as he is on the moderated list, he will
> minimize his contributions. I for one am fine with that.

You shouldn't be.  You can have a content-free sugar coated list or you can
have real content where, among other things, people are told frankly when
they are wrong.  You can't have it both ways, and your way is dying.

> I prefer a
> list where people aren't afraid to post a question simply because one
> member might strike them down for it.

Noone ever needs to be afraid of posting a honest question after trying the
reasonable means within their capabilities to get the answer themselves.
The flip side is that asking 1500 people to do them a favor should not be
taken lightly.  Those that do are basically saying "I'm more important than
all of you", which deserves whatever scorn it attracts.

> Trying to learn in an
> environment where the teacher will start yelling at you if they think
> your question isn't "good enough" is NOT a good way to learn, IMHO.

It's not about the goodness of the question, but rather about having done
reasonable homework before asking someone else to help.  A good teacher
doesn't answer every question outright.  Sometimes it is best to tell the
student how to think differently about the problem, sometimes to refer to
where the answer is, and sometimes the most useful response is to tell the
student that he should have been able to figure out that himself and to stop
relying on you for all the answers.

For example, a recent post asked about a simple battery charging circuit.
That was a great question.  The OP had definitely made a good effort to
understand the circuit within his limitations.  As a result, people went out
of their way to explain the circuit to him.

On the other hand, "is RA4 a open collector output on a PIC18F2550?" is a
stupid question because it is answered clearly in the datasheet right where
you'd expect to find it.  That question deserves "RTFM" as a response at
best.  The OP may decide to get upset at that, but that would be the fault
of the OP, not the person answering.

> I personally don't see how taking him off the moderated list could
> ever work. It never worked before, and I've not heard ANYTHING from
> Olin to indicate it would work now

The question isn't about whether it would work but what your idea of "work"
is, of course.  If you'd rather have a low content touchy-feely list than a
vibrant useful one, even if a occasional lazy poster gets upset, then things
do "work" better according to your definition now.  However if that's your
choice you don't belong as a admin, but that's another discussion.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.
-- 
http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist