I have seen this debate here and elsewhere over and over again. Closed source applications are one thing, and closed source drivers and toolchains are another. In the small company context one's livelihood depends on the functionality of the toolchains one uses. Closed source drivers and compilers from small companies or one man shops are often bad news for users, who are also small companies. One does not have the resources to sue, insure or otherwise protect against the toolchain or driver maker going out of business, selling out, or simply dropping dead. How many of the developers and engineers on this list own thousands of dollars worth of development tools, programmer boxes and libraries that no-one can use anymore because they are closed source and the original small businesses that created them no longer exist or no longer support them? To me, the need to be able to 'put a screwdriver and a soldering iron' to my uninsured tools it vital, in case (and that happens rather often), they don't do something or they need to do something new. That means that I have a strong need for open source drivers and toolchains. This is not about politics, it's real life. Politics is where one needs to choose which kind of open source model to adopt, not whether one needs it. BSD (free as in free beer and you keep the glass), GPL (free forever), LGPL or 'freeware', I only care about that when the time comes to 'release' a patch or an application. Not before. Because, even the GPL permits anything to be done to it as long as it is not distributed. And I am not into that. I need my patches for myself ... although I share them freely if they are needed. So one can talk politics *after* the usability angle is covered properly. I am not saying that closed source drivers and toolchains from small developers are bad, I am saying that the open source version of the same is better, and that it has saved my day many times. Peter -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist