>> Russell is correct here in that David made a statement >> which is un-provable >> and there for religious in it's own right: While Russell >> can not (please >> don't try? Please?) prove that religions DO provide real >> goods, David also >> can not possibly prove that they do NOT provide real >> goods. Straw man. Wrong question. Now, if you want to start on "God is not real", it's a different discussion :-) THAT's the one you want to (and have) banned here. Let's not even START on "Psychiatrists, Psychologists, Psychotherapists, Psychopaths, Homeopaths, ... provide nothing real" The Moot: "Religions provide nothing real". Debate that in any serious forum and the proposer dies big time. The question is not about proving GOD real, an entirely different matter, but about religions. Start with the Salvation Army as they are easy common ground, I imagine. Q: is the SA a religion. A: For the purposes of this discussion, yes. They are in fact a subset of Christianity. Q: Do the SA provide nothing real? A: Are you mad ????????????? Q.E.D. Russell -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist