Restoring some snippery to make the query/answer intelligible >>> 1) At the efficiency levels that solar converts to >>> electricity, it takes >>> more energy to create solar panels than they produce. >> A moment's thought about the economics of this make me >> ask: How can this possibly be true? > Government subsidies. We already had a round of detailed answers to this. We seem to be going around the loop again. So, no, it's not true by any normal standards. While PV panels are not, as yet, competitive with grid electricity in most areas, they are both net energy positive over a typical lifetime and cost competitive in their own right. Rough and quick: $5/Watt bare panel. 20 year life. 4 kWh/day insolation mean. 12% delivered efficiency. Returned energy in 20 years for a 100 Watt panel is 100/1000 kW x 4 kWh/day x 365 days x 20 years =~ 3000 kWh Panel cost = 100 x 5 = $500. Energy value varies but at Howard's horrendous $US0.48/kWh that's 0.48*3000 = $US1440. Add installation, cabling and more and it's closer to break even than is nice. But the selling price is, the invisible hand assures us, significantly above the energy cost of production. By all means add your own assumptions. Note that "government subsidies", as also discussed here recently, can include, as well as pork and more, payments for the advantages conveyed to the body corporate of having individuals enter the power generation market. While one James rooftop of PV panels is no big deal in the scheme of things, a state full of such can make a significant difference in power generation reckonings. Some see that anything they can make from others at no true cost to themselves as a legitimate gain but any payment by the state for legitimate gain as personal theft of their property. For such there are no legitimate savings which the government can pay for so such payments are necessarily theft. A philosophy free accountant, should such exist, may be more easily convinced by such arguments . Russell -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist