I agree totally with your point. It is part of what I meant by politics in the schools, thought it is only one element. When the school becomes a political tool for politicians to exploit, then academics and students suffer. Someone mentioned that the school system in New York in the 1930's was quite exemplary. That was before politicians had gained control over the entire academic system. But I would like to hear from someone as to whether or not the student attitude has contributed in part to the decline of academic standards. Are teachers more constrained as to how they teach, what they teach and how they manage classroom control? If student attitudes have become problematic, where do we see the origins of this? Even at the college level there are a number of constraints on teachers as to how they interact with undisciplined students. Why are there undisciplined students in much larger numbers today? It used to be that chewing gum in class was an infraction. Now it can be much worse. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Gardner" To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 10:13 PM Subject: Re: [OT] Who is to blame: Was: Using vouchers toimprovethequalityofschools(was:Educationreform) >>> One notices Hegel did not write " I learn nothing from History"... > >> You are correct, he did not. I paraphrased, the phrase I said was "The >> only >> thing we learn from history is that we do not learn from history." Is >> that >> in dispute? > > Oh no. Point is, while we cannot individually change a moribund public > school > system, we - Many of us - can spare our children wasting years developing > "self-esteem" at the expense of literacy, numeracy, and disciplined > learning > habits. > > If you can, and don't, the odds are good you'll wish you had... > > Jack > > > > On 3/17/08, Rich wrote: >> You are correct, he did not. I paraphrased, the phrase I said was "The >> only >> thing we learn from history is that we do not learn from history." Is >> that >> in dispute? >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "John Gardner" >> To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." >> Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 3:06 PM >> Subject: Re: [OT] Who is to blame: Was: Using vouchers to >> improvethequalityofschools(was:Educationreform) >> >> >> > One notices Hegel did not write " I learn nothing from History"... >> > >> > On 3/17/08, Gerhard Fiedler wrote: >> >> Rich wrote: >> >> >> >> > My meaning was not to call anyone a communist but to point out that >> >> > the >> >> > idea that has been raised ( placing children's education with the >> >> > state) >> >> > has been exercised for political purposes [...] >> >> >> >> But (whether I agree with Cedric or not), it seemed to me that he >> >> specifically said to /not/ place children's education with the state, >> >> but >> >> rather with a community that is a bit larger than the family. >> >> >> >> Which is also related to this: >> >> >> >> > One of the socio-political problems that America is faced with today >> >> > is >> >> > the breakdown of the family unit, and children having only one >> >> > parent >> >> > or >> >> > no dependable parent to look up to. >> >> >> >> IMO the problem is not so much the breakdown of the family unit, but >> >> the >> >> fact that there is no other group around (anymore) that is able to >> >> step >> >> in, >> >> in terms of education. >> >> >> >> Gerhard >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive >> >> View/change your membership options at >> >> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist >> >> >> > -- >> > http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive >> > View/change your membership options at >> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist >> >> -- >> http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive >> View/change your membership options at >> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist >> > -- > http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive > View/change your membership options at > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist