If my comments were misleading, I apologize.  My meaning was not to call 
anyone a communist but to point out that the idea that has been raised ( 
placing children's education with the state) has been exercised for 
political purposes which, ended in disaster for the people.  Hegel said that 
the only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history. 
Perhaps we should learn something from the history of the concept of the 
family unit as subservient to the state. I fail to see how rendering 
children wards of the state can contribute more to education than to 
political indoctrination.  It has been proven to be more destructive than 
constructive in the past.  It seems axiomatic that education should be a 
matter of academics and not serving some political purpose.  It is 
impossible for the state to assume responsibility for children and remain 
neutral and objective regarding their education and at the same time 
maintain a responsibility to families.  If we choose to learn something from 
history, we can see that much.  The process of education was more successful 
when the state did not control the process.  I am reminded of Lord Acton's 
comment that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.  When 
the state has assumed responsibility for the education of its young citizens 
it will have compromised liberty.  I can see how the level of academic 
performance in America has declined as the state has assumed more control 
over curricula and methodology.  There are any studies concerning this. 
Again, I apologize if I offended anyone, my remarks were directed more 
towards history than any person.  Perhaps I was too forward in my approach.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gerhard Fiedler" <lists@connectionbrazil.com>
To: <piclist@mit.edu>
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] Who is to blame: Was: Using vouchers to improve 
thequalityofschools(was:Educationreform)


> Cedric Chang wrote:
>
>>>>> Parents should not "own" children.  Nor ( most definitely ) should the
>>>>> state.
>
>>> The Nazis and the fascists did it.  The communists did it.  It was
>>> originally the position that Karl Marx took and published in The
>>> Manifesto of The Communist Party, in 1848. Hillary Clinton suggests as
>>> much in her book It Takes a Village.  The intention was to grow the
>>> children in the state ideology.
>
>> My suggestion is totally different from what was planned by the Nazis,
>> Hillary, Marx, John Dewey, Bismark, or Horace Mann. Conflating my
>> comment with the above idiots is misleading and unfair.
>
> I thought so too, and I was surprised, as usually Rich doesn't seem to do
> such things. Bringing an idea next to something "communist" is in the US a
> simple cheap shot that more often than not ends any useful exchange of
> ideas. (There is a solid history of such behavior...) Besides, the fact
> that Marx had the same position doesn't say anything about an idea. He
> probably thought that breathing was good for your health... you'd stop
> breathing because of that? :)
>
> The idea of the children not "belonging" to the parents, to the family, 
> but
> rather having a bigger circle of "upbringing resources" is not so recent 
> as
> fascists or Marx. It probably pre-dates most of the Christian
> (totalitarian) roots our culture is based on. Children belonging to, being
> some form of property of, their parents may feel natural to some or most,
> but there's nothing inherent natural in the type of family structure that
> Western culture is based on. And it brings forth enough aberrations that
> questioning it from time to time just seems healthy.
>
> The idea of family is one of the roots of Monarchism, FWIW. And the idea
> that no group of people can work as well as an individual is not
> necessarily always a positive one (protecting the rights of the
> individual), but also sometimes a negative one (standing in the way of
> allowing our race to develop the necessary traits to make communities
> work).
>
> Gerhard
>
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