List doesn't like attachment and I don't have access to a web site, ask me for schematic at: cdenk@alltel.net. I will check grounds, but think there is only one. However, the generator is attached to underground conduit at it's end, and to the panel area by several metallic conduits, and house has several good ground rods, including, at the meter and to the main panel. The battery at the generator is grounded to the generator and has a 12 ga. copper wire to the PLC and inside battery grounds. I was pretty careful with isolating the hot sides with either double throw switch, relays, or opto isolators. Powered from the non-generator engine battery, all OK. If it's powered from the engine's battery, upon starter energizing, voltage is pulled down to 9 volts, and PLC resets, had that issue some time ago, and added a second battery (from a homebuilt airplane we had dismantled) with the diodes to select the higher voltage one as described earlier. No problems when powered off either battery, except when starting. Issue only when switching from the switching power supply to battery, when the relay coil is deenrgized and spring pulls contacts open. No problem when coil is energized and contacts are switching. Added 2000 MFD, 50VDC capacitor (+ to switching power supply, - to PLC supply side) at relay terminals, problem went away. Tried 1000 mfd, 25 volt, problem returned. Guess that's one fix, probably order a selection of caps and trial and error how small I can get. A second round of testing of all modes was OK with the 2000 mfd. Also, in place of the IAC-15 input module, have used a H11AA2 AC input optoisolator. On the AC side, a 22k resistor in series to the 120 volt. On the output side, a 10K resistor pullup, and .33 MFD cap to 12 volt on the output to th PLC in port, and other side to ground. It seems to work equally well as the module at detecting the AC power presence.. Dwayne Reid wrote: > Please try this: > > Power PLC directly from one of the batteries. Repeat tests. > > If PLC does NOT reset, you know the problem and the cure. > > If PLC DOES reset, well, I guess I'll go fishing for other ideas. > > Let us know what happens. > > dwayne > > PS - I still think the momentary interruption in PLC power when the > relay switches is the cause of your problems. The above test should > confirm whether I'm right or not. > > dwayne > > At 08:03 AM 4/10/2007, Carl Denk wrote: > >> Just to summarize symptom: Relay drops out, switching PLC from 120VAC > >> 12 VDC switching supply to 2 lead acid batteries connected with diodes >> to relay. Switches OK when 120 is from utility, PLC resets when 120 is >> > >from generator. Switch over to 120 supply is OK with either utility or > >> generator source. >> >> Did disconnect one battery at a time, no change. Did add house >> electrical load, as opposed to just exercising generator with no >> transfer, no change. >> >> ?? >> Replace relay - with what? >> Add capacitor to bridge during changeover - how big, where? >> While only with generator source? >> >> ~) >> >> Carl Denk wrote: >> >>> Yes, it's likely that the voltage is dropping causing the PLC to reset, >>> but doesn't explain why, with the 3 voltages (2 batteries and switching >>> supplies, and the 120 volt are stable (though the 1 battery will be a >>> volt or so higher due to the generator's engine's alternator (15 amp >>> max.) being on line)(more on that below), the relay (have tried 3 >>> different manufacture's equivalents) is dropping out contacts pulled >>> apart by spring, and while on utility power, no problem. The 2 batteries >>> are connected to the PLC by diodes as you suggest. >>> >>> Currently the switching supply is 12.1 volts, the batteries are >>> generally in the 13 - 14 volt range. It would be possible to provide a >>> higher voltage switching supply, but there is other equipment on line >>> including numerous automotive 1" cube relays rated at 12 VDC, >>> electronics, and sensors that may have resistor voltage dividers, that >>> makes that a poor choice at this time. >>> >>> After sleeping on it overnight :), the only thing different with the >>> genrator running on the 12 VDC side is the generator's engine (27 Hp. >>> Kohler) does have an alternator and regulator to service it's battery >>> (beefy 12 volt deep cycle marine type lead acid) is on line. Both >>> batteries have their own charger/maintainer also. Will do some >>> experimenting with taking 1 or the other battery out of the circuit. The >>> engine alternator to battery cable is heavy, probably "00", and then >>> from the battery to the UPS area is 35' (10m) (one way) of #12 wire. >>> Would expect the battery to absorb most spikes, noise, etc. >>> >>> The PLC does have LED's for pause, RTC Error, and Run Error. To the >>> eyeball, the 3 LED's are indicating the same as if powering up the PLC, >>> which tends to support the theory of dropped power. >>> >>> Please keep the ideas coming. :) >>> >>> Dwayne Reid wrote: >>> >>> >>>> At 07:06 PM 4/9/2007, Carl Denk wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> The DPDT relay (Square D 8501KP12P14V20) has a 120 volt coil going to >>>>> the house power with the PLC input going to the common contacts, the 120 >>>>> power supply to the N.O. contacts so if there is 120 volt power >>>>> available, the power comes from the 120 volt supply. Each battery goes >>>>> to one of the N.C. contacts so if the 120 isn't there, the batteries are >>>>> the supply. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> I take it that the PLC loses power during the time while the relay is >>>> switching between its contacts? >>>> >>>> If so, I expect that to be the problem. >>>> >>>> Can I make a possibly simple suggestion? >>>> >>>> Ensure that your DC supply while operating from AC power is higher >>>> than the float voltage on the batteries. Then use diodes to OR all 3 >>>> sources of power: one diode anode from each of the batteries and from >>>> the AC power supply. The cathodes of all the diodes feed the >>>> >> PLC power input. >> >>>> By picking the output voltage of the AC-powered DC supply to be >>>> higher than what is present on the batteries, you ensure that the >>>> batteries are not loaded. When the AC power disappears, the diodes >>>> smoothly transition to whichever battery has the highest voltage. >>>> >>>> Easy to test to see if this fixes your problem. I suspect that it will. >>>> >>>> dwayne >>>> > > > -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist