Hi Olin I was operating under the assumption that the trouble was on my end and I still am. I apologize if I came across as disrespectful towards you or anyone else that certainly was not my intent. (re the head in dark place troubles comment I was referring to my own head) " There is more that can go wrong than you are apparently aware of." No argument these quarters as this is obviously the case! But I'm not giving up. I don't give up. I live in the real world where things sometimes don't work on the first few tries and you have to get someone that knows what they are doing to help you figure out what is going on. Seems to me the best way to figure out what is going on is to look the rise/fall times (like the guy that designed it suggested) of my programmer in comparison to the rise times of a working unit with the same type of devices. I have meetings all morning and on in to the afternoon but I will measure the rise and fall times first opportunity. The PGD and PGC pins are next to each other on the device so I'm surprised the designers would not expect them to wind up side by side in a programming cable. I'm using the same RJ-12 cable that shipped from Microchip (I just lopped the end off and wired it to my connector) and the PGD and PGC are right next to each other. I have no problems with building a different cable that uses the other header on the programmer instead of the RJ-12. I can use a twisted pair with ground around each signal as kind of a shield or put the signals on a pair together for cross talk cancellation. What would you suggest? If anyone else has one of these this is working with the 18F family and can make a rise/fall time measurement I would be very grateful. Phillip Things should be as simple as possible but no simpler Phillip Coiner CTO, GPS Source, Inc. Your source for quality GNSS Networking Solutions and Design Services, Now! -----Original Message----- From: piclist-bounces@mit.edu [mailto:piclist-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf Of Olin Lathrop Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 6:35 AM To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. Subject: Re: [PIC] Pro_programer/head in dark place troubles Phillip Coiner wrote: > I bought a pro_prog from Olin and I can't get the thing to work. Like I said in my last private message to you, any time you want to give up just send it back for a refund. > He is telling me to check for cross talk but I am not convinced that > is the problem. I'm trying to help you diagnose this, but you keep trying to tell me what the problem isn't and not run the tests I ask for. I don't know if it's crosstalk, but I have seen crosstalk be a issue in several cases. Just because the ICD2 works with a circuit only means the lines are connected correctly, not that all other programmers should work. Each programmer has different characteristics. Your cable uses a unusual pinout that puts Vpp adjacent to one of the programming signal lines. I don't know if that matters, but when Vpp rises 13V in a microsecond or two, it doesn't take a lot of capacitance to make a glitch show up elsewhere. You also have PGC and PGD adjacent to each other. Again, I don't know if that's the problem, but I have seen it be the problem in other cases. > I laid out the board and I know the lines have only about 1pf (if > that) with the trace widths and PCB stack up I'm using. > > I can take the cable whilst plugged into the board and use it with an > ICD2 and it works fine. You are making assumptions about why I'm asking for these tests and what the causes of a failure are limited to. There is more that can go wrong than you are apparently aware of. > I think there is something strange going on but I can't figure it out. I agree with this one. So far I don't have a explanation of why it won't work with your target system either. > I was wondering if there is anyone out there that is using a pro_prog > with the 18F family parts? Many, although I don't know how many on this list. > If so can you tell me the rise & fall times for the edges of PGD and > PGC? As I said in my last private message to you, I expect a few 100nS, certainly not more than 1uS. ******************************************************************** Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products (978) 742-9014. Gold level PIC consultants since 2000. -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist