Phillip,
I think that Olin has a lot of short comings just like the rest of us.  That 
said,
he has offered you your money back, what more can you ask?  I have been in 
electronics
forever 66 years and about 50 0f that as a degreed EE in Microwave and RF. 
I said that to
say that after reading Olin's replies to questions on the list he does know 
his electronics.
I think that as an engineer that has been designing electronic 
equipment(space program, military,
commercial, consumer industrial, and other)for proximally 50 tears that I 
always knew my designs better than an observer, by the way I still have a 
small Design and manufacturing company today.  I think the same goes for 
Olin.  Do exactly (run the test he tells you to) as he ask you to do and you 
might get the answer you want.

Derward myrick


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Olin Lathrop" <olin_piclist@embedinc.com>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <piclist@mit.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 7:34 AM
Subject: Re: [PIC] Pro_programer/head in dark place troubles


> Phillip Coiner wrote:
>> I bought a pro_prog from Olin and I can't get the thing to work.
>
> Like I said in my last private message to you, any time you want to give 
> up
> just send it back for a refund.
>
>> He is telling me to check for cross talk but I am not convinced that
>> is the problem.
>
> I'm trying to help you diagnose this, but you keep trying to tell me what
> the problem isn't and not run the tests I ask for.  I don't know if it's
> crosstalk, but I have seen crosstalk be a issue in several cases.  Just
> because the ICD2 works with a circuit only means the lines are connected
> correctly, not that all other programmers should work.  Each programmer 
> has
> different characteristics.  Your cable uses a unusual pinout that puts Vpp
> adjacent to one of the programming signal lines.  I don't know if that
> matters, but when Vpp rises 13V in a microsecond or two, it doesn't take a
> lot of capacitance to make a glitch show up elsewhere.  You also have PGC
> and PGD adjacent to each other.  Again, I don't know if that's the 
> problem,
> but I have seen it be the problem in other cases.
>
>> I laid out the board and I know the lines have only about 1pf (if
>> that) with the trace widths and PCB stack up I'm using.
>>
>> I can take the cable whilst plugged into the board and use it with an
>> ICD2 and it works fine.
>
> You are making assumptions about why I'm asking for these tests and what 
> the
> causes of a failure are limited to.  There is more that can go wrong than
> you are apparently aware of.
>
>> I think there is something strange going on but I can't figure it out.
>
> I agree with this one.  So far I don't have a explanation of why it won't
> work with your target system either.
>
>> I was wondering if there is anyone out there that is using a pro_prog
>> with the 18F family parts?
>
> Many, although I don't know how many on this list.
>
>> If so can you tell me the rise & fall times for the edges of PGD and
>> PGC?
>
> As I said in my last private message to you, I expect a few 100nS, 
> certainly
> not more than 1uS.
>
>
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