Vitaliy wrote: > Gerhard Fiedler wrote: >> Can you cite something? I used the online version, and they do not seem = to >> agree with you. They say (among other, here not relevant meanings) in >> : > = > I like this definition better (since it supports my point of view): = > http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/business Not exactly Webster's :) > busi=B7ness > -noun > = > 2. the purchase and sale of goods in an attempt to make a profit. > 3. a person, partnership, or corporation engaged in commerce, = > manufacturing, or a service; profit-seeking enterprise or concern. I disagree -- not with the definition, but with your interpretation. IMO it doesn't support your view, it supports mine. Two of the three definitions state that making profit is a part of a business, one doesn't state it, and none states that it is the highest priority of a business. = To make this clear: I never doubted that making profit is a part of most businesses (even though it seems there are definitions that go beyond this), but I don't see that it is necessarily the highest priority -- which is what you said is the definition of "business". = >>> Can you think of a business whose primary goal is *not* creating >>> profit? >> = >> Lots. For example, self-realization can be the primary goal for someone >> to create a business. Profit is usually necessary in such a case, but >> not necessarily the most important thing. > = > Define "self-realization", and what the measure of this > "self-realization" is. = I don't have to, the person who runs such a business would do it -- as Russell has :) I also run a business, and my primary goal with that is to be able to work from home, for a number of reasons. Obviously I need to make enough money to live, but I'm sure that I could have made more money not working from home (whether in my own or in another business) than I have so far. So I definitely did not maximize my profits, giving higher priorities to other considerations. > Also explain how the goal of creating a profit would interfere with it. Not "creating a profit", but maximizing profit. Maximizing profit would have interfered with my primary goal of working from home, in many occasions. >> I can envision (and there possibly are) businesses whose primary goal is >> to destroy other businesses, and profits are completely irrelevant for >> them. > = > I can't envision, nor have I ever heard of any such businesses. What > would be the motive? There are more direct means of satisfying one's > sadistic impulses. Oh thee innocent :) Capitalism has many ugly faces (I don't want to stir a religious war, and I'm not saying it has only ugly faces :). Some of the real big conglomerates (they are not single businesses, but collections of many businesses) try many things when they want to get into a market. Trying to go from 0% market share to 90% market share means to destroy businesses. A company may be created to get into a market with dumping prices, being charged of dumping, but while the lawsuit is going on, the main competitors are going broke. Eventually the dumping company gets fined and possibly goes bankrupt, but the market break is there. Which gives a break to another company. The primary goal of the dumping company was not to make profit, but to shake the market. You doubt this happens? Of course, such maneuvers (especially them) usually do have the goal of maximizing someone's profit -- but not necessarily the concerned business's profit. = >> There are businesses whose express purpose is to make a loss (to provide >> other businesses with a possibility to use this loss). > = > I don't understand, please explain. See Russell's answer. AFAIK there are also other mechanisms (funds where companies can "buy" losses; seems to be useful tax-wise in certain situations). >> And so on... take any 100 businesses and analyze their priorities. >> You'll probably find much more than "making profit", and while >> everybody likes a nice profit, there always will be decisions that put >> profit maximization behind something else -- which, by your definition, >> would make them... what exactly? they're not non-profits, but they're >> not businesses in your sense either. > = > Unless you provide concrete examples, I don't think we'll get anywhere. > Behind what, exactly? = For example, a company may decide to keep an elderly employee on payroll until retirement, even though his productivity -- in terms of profit maximization -- may have tanked. (I'm not implying that all elderly employees have low productivity, but some do.) There are many such decisions, where profit maximization -- whatever period -- is not the primary goal. Other people provided other examples: businesses where the main goal is to provide a livelihood for a local group of people, to foster change in some area (environment, for example), to provide a certain work environment not found elsewhere... use your imagination. All these require profit, but it's not necessarily their primary goal. > It would be interesting to hear the opinions of business owners (of which = > there are many on this list). What is the primary goal of *your* business= ? = > How do you justify it? You've read Russell, and mine above. I'm sure there are others. I imagine that most small business owners could make more (personal) profit by putting their efforts into a big company, using all the mechanisms big companies provide to make profit. Yet they run their small businesses; usually not because of personal profit maximization, but because of something else. This may even be your case :) = >> Well, that's your opinion (obviously), and I'm not saying you're not >> entitled to it. > = > You can't sustain the activities I listed above, unless your business is = > profitable. You may have a different opinion, but it will obviously be = > wrong. ;) Of course not. You constantly mistake 1) "making a profit is necessary for a business" for 2) "making profit is by definition the primary goal of every business". 1) is what we agree on, but you claim 2) -- and everything that you can come up with only substantiates 1), not 2). There hasn't been a single definition of business so far (besides yours, of course :) that states that making (or maximizing) profit is the primary goal of every business. Of course, usually a business has to be profitable (even though there are exceptions, see above) -- but that's a long shot from profit making or maximizing being the primary goal. It just says that it is /a/ goal, among possibly others, possibly more important ones. = > What, besides making a profit, are some other primary objectives of a > business? = > = > This discussion has already identified one -- providing employment to > people who live within a certain radius of your business (or, for > businesses located close to the national border, on the basis of > nationality). Providing means of living for family members. For a group of friends to be able to work together. Providing a certain work environment (5 o'clock tee, no air conditioning and open windows with flowers outside, playtime with children every day between 14h and 16h, ...). Fostering certain changes (environmental, technological, social). Being your own boss. Pride in ownership. Inability to "work for someone else". Inability to work with someone else. Fulfilling a dream (be that what it may be) while making a living with it. = All of these may or may not result in a profit, but making profit (or even maximizing it) is not necessary. BTW, your original term was "making money". That's not quite up to "definition standards" :) Even non-profits "make money" in the sense that they have income. (Almost) every person makes money. We then moved to profit; seems to be more "business". But even that is not really clear. Is the salary that the owner receives a profit? In a way it is, legally it isn't. You see, when you want to get to definitions (as in "by definition"), things get complicated. Few things are "by definition" :) Gerhard -- = http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist