piclist-bounces@mit.edu wrote:

We've hijacked the thread, so I adjusted the topic. 

[much snipped]

> On top of that, most people retain far more of an experience
> when it's "real".

That and your other points are well-taken. Steve's point as well. Guess those things that are now obvious to me aren't obvious to someone starting out. I admit I forgot that (and that they weren't always obvious to me, either). Just to reiterate, I never said breadboarding isn't useful. I hope no-one read anything remotely similar into my statements. I said:

"There's just no substitute for hands-on learning, or letting the magic smoke out of the wires. A simulator can't take the place of a breadboard."

But the statement below I will stick to.

>> Alternate viewpoint: for any learning activity, you tend to get out
>> of it what you put into it. If you just blindly follow an example
>> (be it the breadoarded circuit above, spice, dsp code, or whatever)
>> without understanding what's going on, then I agree, you're wasting
>> your time. 


on to equations: 

> Equations? Equations come later. If you try and learn
> electronics by chugging through all the equations most people
> will become so annoyed they'll just give up. Equations are
> very important, but when first learning something there's
> nothing like doing.

this may be a matter of semantics, or a matter of learning style. "equation" may also not have been the best choice of words. Using the resistor/zener example: You do need to have a basic knowledge of ohm's law, be able to figure out the voltage and current across the resistor, be able to determine the resistor value in the first place (eg why was that value chosen and can another value be used?), etc. This is part of what I meant by equations. Because otherwise my assertion that building the circuit is a waste of time holds true. That's all my opinion of course, and I understand you do not totally agree :) I also think it's closely tied to what you mean by 'intuitive sense'

> There is a fallacy in our education system in that theory is
> taught almost exclusively. I've known electrical engineering
> students who were EXCELLENT students, great marks, knew the
> math to a tee. But when they were presented with a simple BJT
> circuit, they had ZERO intuitive sense on how it worked. 

I've known a few like that myself (we hire local students in a co-op program). But this isn't the fault of the equations or theory. I've had two students from the same University, same core courses, with similar GPA. One was absolutely horrible who was not asked back a second semester, the other had 'the knack' (sorry couldn't resist) we're trying to create a postion for when he graduates...

I do wish Universities provided more hands-on experience. I definitely wish I had more hands-on lab courses back then. Do you realize not one of my courses ever told me about 7805 regulators? But I do know how a regulator works, or how to build my own regulator if 7805's were not available. I could even build a crude op-amp out of transistors to use in my regulator if I had to. Ultimately, to an engineer, those skills are far more valuable. And that's probably why universities focus much more on theory than hands-on skills, perhaps at the expense of hands-on experience.

ok, back to work.

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