>> > The forbidden >> > here is discussion of what can not be known. Things that will not >> > reveal >> > themselves to confirmable tests and studies. >> Can you prove your love for your wife? Or subject it to confirmable >> tests >> and studies? > I can't speak for James, but the above is a poor argument. I'm not > married, > but if I were I could provide evidence that I love my wife. A > concerned tone > of voice, a soft touch, a smile, doing things for/with my wife, are > all real > evidence that when added up show that I love my wife. Love can > certainly be > evidenced and supported by tests and studies. I think that's not doing James' attempt at justification of his stance (which of course he doesn't have to justify as within this context he is 'god') any favours :-) Lets' see if the logic works as I think it does ... James proscribes talking about aspects of religion where it involves discussing that which cannot be known. Someone proposes that loving ones wife involves an equal degree of unprovability to discussing religious unknowables. You argue that love of a wife can be demonstrated by behaviour, tests, studies, personal attitude etc. Logical conclusion is that aspects of "religion" which are similar to aspects of "loving one's wife" are essentially knowable/provable/testable and so are fare games for discussion. Sounds good to me :-) I give you a new commandment (it's really the same old commandment that you've always had) - that you love each other as much as and in the same way as I have loved you. By *THIS* will everyone know that you are genuinely part of my team - if you have love for each other! (bzzt ...) Here's the measure, here's the ultimate test of love - that a person lays down their life for their friends. (bzzzt ...) You ask me what the greatest thing you should do is? OK, it's this - you should love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength and all your mind and (bzz .) NO! - wait a mo - I've not finished - you asked for one, but I'll give you two, as they are so completely entwined that they are inspirable - *AND* You should love your neighbour as yourself. Ok. Take it away ... (bzzzt ...). OK. Man at the back. OK- additional question. Who is your neighbour? OK - I'll tell you a story. There was this guy who REALLY hated Lebanese. Utterly despised them. Couldn't stand being near them. This guy had to go on a business trip. The most direct route went, you guessed it, straight through Lebanon. Do you think he went that way? No way Jose! He took the long path to avoid those Lebanese scum. Went by the back route through a more seedy and road-less-travelled district. Well, you guessed it. He got set on by donkey-jackers who mugged him, beat the stuffing out of him, ripped off all his gear and left him looking fit to die. After a while a televangelist came along the same road. He saw this guy lying there but pretended like he didn't and went on by. A while later this big time preacher came by. He saw this guy lying there as well. Did he stop. Hookey Walker!. He actually changed over to the wrong side of the road and drove by so he wouldn't get blood on his donkey's sidewalls. Wasn't looking good for this guy. And then, enter stage left, you guessed it. Roll of drums, bright lights. It was a (all together now) Lebanese business man. Oh no. Oh yes. Now this guy didn't have too much say in the matter as he was about dead. The Lebanese guy scraped him up and took him off to the nearest repair facility. Back then hospitals were a bit hard to come by but the local hotellery served the bill and the Lebanese guy left him there. paid the bill way in advance and told the manager that he'd pay any extra costs next time he came through if what he'd given him wasn't enough. So, think about it - it really shouldn't take too much thought. Who was this man's neighbour?. (bzzt ...) Oh, and by the way, look at which way the neighbour relationship works there - it's added a twist to the question. OK. (bzzt ...) Of such discussable things may be a key part of the core of one or more of the major religions. The reality, effects, dedication, tone of voice, softness of "touch" - in far broader ways than just a physical one, smiles and what drives them, doing things for/with and more are, some may argue, all real evidence that when added up show genuine love that can certainly be evidenced and supported by tests and studies. Others would disagree. And do. No doubt this is all really subterfuge to introduce nasty arcane material contained in the above adjurations and metaphors. That certainly seems to be what many tell me. Quite what complaints people have with " ...and your neighbour as yourself" and "a new commandment ..." and ... I never manage to understand. They usually seem to go "Yes!. But ..." and run off on some other straw man tangent. You get used to it after a while. Russell. (bzzzt ...) -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist