Computer users who are also blind have an interesting take on this whole discussion. Someone on this list touched on the monolithic nature of GUI applications and Windows applications in particular. There in lies a real problem. There are several commercial programs that generally make Microsoft Windows mostly talk or output Braille to special displays. One of the most expensive and good adaptive programs is called JAWS which stands for Job Access With Speech. It is very sophisticated and works beautifully for some applications, fair, for others and absolutely bombs on Windows applications that weren't written to work with JAWS. To me, that is unacceptable, the fact that each application is its own little battle ground as to whether or not it will work. If I am going to spend the $1,000 plus to add JAWS to Windows, I darn well want to know it's going to work. With unix, however, the modular nature of things and the fact that there is a sacred concept of standard input and output means that access to non-GUI applications is almost guaranteed without any software developer having to do much of anything. This, of course, is an over simplification. Some CLI applications are awkward to use with speech because they address the screen nonsequencially so you hear everything, but it doesn't make much sense. The neat thing is that you can work around things like that if it is really important by writing filters to try to distill the important nuggets out of all the ASCII graphics and or boiler plate that may make you listen to a whole screen of repetitive information when all you wanted was one thing such as, "Is the interface up?" In the late nineties, I was getting pretty frustrated since by then, DOS was fading in to obsolescence and unix was only available for the most part on Suns and other rather expensive platforms. I finally tried Linux in 2001 or so and haven't looked back since. My only use for DOS any more is to convert any old P.C. with two serial ports in to a talking terminal, so to speak, which connects to another serial port on a Linux box. The Linux box is what does all the fun stuff these days. There are groups working on speech and Braille access for gnome, but any GUI presents some of the same problems Windows does and only certain applications are presently usable this way in gnome. Under Linux, I can program PIC's, burn CD's and listen to streaming audio with mplayer as well as write programs in C and play with expect and shell scripts to my heart's content. The frustration level is down significantly from what it was about ten years ago. My only real gripe with Windows was echoed by another person on this list in that it has made malfunctions almost normal. There is kind of an attitude amongst many that, "Oh! that's just the way Windows is." In my paid job, I manage domain name servers, dhcp servers and do tons of unix-based automation. Our group does lots of things in huge quantities and I am eternally grateful to the unix brains out there who have made this job much more productive than it might have been. I think it was Isaac Newton who made the remark about standing on the shoulders of giants and that sums up my feelings about unix. It isn't perfect by any means, but it is constantly evolving. Martin McCormick WB5AGZ Stillwater, OK Systems Engineer OSU Information Technology Department Network Operations Group -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist