Extracted out of a broader context, but this doesn't do excessive 
violence to it IMHO.

>> our mind can do what ever we want. your [[ chose | choice]] was to
>> take [[the]] drug and it did it for you.

If a drug is administered unbeknown to the subject and it has radical 
and statistically highly significant repeatable effects that can be 
invariably demonstrated in double blind crossover trials, as is 
(apparently) the case for eg the Ketamine effects which started this 
thread, then the statement above becomes dangerously close to mumbo 
jumbo and opponent beating. I APPRECIATE the spirit of what was 
intended to be being said, but it would be easier to take the wrong 
impression from it than the right one.

BECAUSE:    IF a person with clinically severe long term depression is 
given, quite unbeknown to them, a single dose of Ketamine and it lifts 
their depression, which is  what you can reasonably expect could 
happen, THEN this is totally not what the above statement would be 
taken to mean in normal circumstances. Certainly, the drug acted on 
their mind, so you could, somewhat at a reach, say that their mind did 
it, but the concepts "whatever we want" and "your choice" are 
completely inoperative here.

If, then, one does choose to take eg Ketamine and it has an 
essentially identical effect as it did above then, while the choosing 
may indeed have some effect and the "mind doing things" may have some 
relevance, it would be unreasonable to attribute all or probably even 
most of the result to mind/choice action.

I belabour this point so thoroughly as it is all too easy for people 
to take just as entrenched and blinkered attitudes at the trendy new 
age no-drugs, mind can do everything, feel the power Luke end of the 
spectrum as it is to do so at the "all you need is medicine" end. To 
suggest that either extreme has all the answers for all of the people 
all of the time is to make yourself even more extreme than P T Barnum.

What say we try to offer suggestions and advice of what has worked for 
each of us without attempting to denigrate/criticise the possible 
alternatives? Suggestions about the relative merits of other solutions 
may almost have their place :-) - but in a world as complex as ours, 
allowing that different things work variably well for different people 
is usually wise. [[There are a few notable exceptions, but they don't 
apply here.]]


        Russell 

-- 
http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist