One additional comment: Another important difference between sadness and depression is that depression often includes irrational feelings of guilt and a general feeling of being unwell and fatigued (similar to how you feel when you come down with a very bad cold, but without the upper respiratory symptoms). On 1/24/07, Sean Breheny wrote: > Hi all, > > Really interesting discussion. I think there is something to be said > for the link between intelligence and depression (as I think James > mentioned) as I'm surprised at how many piclisters suffer from it. > > I, too, have had problems with anxiety and depression. Even as a > child, I had anxiety problems and then depression was added to it > suddenly in my early 20s. > > It is important to avoid extremes in this discussion. The following > statements are BOTH untrue: > > 1) Depression is just a physical problem and you can do nothing about > it besides drugs. > 2) Depression is something one can just "snap out of". > > For the first few years of having depression, I didn't know what it > was and I thought I could manage my life by following my "gut > feelings" and being really responsible for my own actions, feelings, > etc. This was a big mistake. It landed me in a deep rut of depression > and constant anxiety for almost two years. I finally tried Zoloft and > while certainly not being a cure, it did help a lot. > > At the same time, if I simply took Zoloft and didn't modify my > behavior at all, I would not feel as well as I do today. Exercise, > recognizing irrationally depressing thought patterns, and my religious > faith have all helped immensely. > > There is indeed an important difference between sadness and > depression. Sadness usually is a person's reaction to wanting > something and not being able to have it (e.g., losing a loved one, not > getting a job offer, etc.) In depression, you want to be happy but > cannot imagine anything which actually attracts you very much (or > worse, in my case, opposite things would attract me from moment to > moment). > > What makes it clear that there is a strongly physical component to > depression is that one's feelings can suddenly shift in either > direction. You can go within minutes from not finding anything > interesting to being intensely interested in things. Also rest and > stress greatly affect the frequency of onset of depressive or anxious > thoughts. > > I've found that depression often involves a cycle. For example: you > know that exercise and proper eating would help, but while exercising > you become very tired very quickly and eating the "wrong" stuff may be > one of the few things which gives you pleasure. In this type of > situation, both patience and perseverance are needed. In other words, > you need to be easy on yourself when you just can't bring yourself to > do what you should. At the same time, you must recognize that only you > (with the help of God and the support of friends) can break the cycle > and you will remain in it until it is broken. With this information, > you keep trying to do that exercise and proper eating and eventually, > some opportunities when you feel well enough with present themselves > and you will make use of them and begin the path out of the cycle. > > I hope this helps a bit, > > Sean > > On 1/24/07, Russell McMahon wrote: > > Permission to speak frankly, Sir!. > > Assumed given > > > > Flame shields up. > > > > There's some good stuff on this thread, and I'm pleased I started it > > (even if its appositeness to so many was serendipitous rather than > > planned). > > . > > BUT amongst the undoubted good advice and different thinking > > suggestions there is still a surprising amount of judgementalism and > > I-'ve-got-the-answer-for-you-ism peeking through. > > > > Several people have suggested some quite sensible sounding ideas re > > life style, attitude, drugs or not, etc, but have then spoiled it by > > adding effectively " ... and if you just did this as well you wouldn't > > have the problems you do [turkey]". In some cases this may well be > > true. In other cases it certainly isn't. For some at least a small > > dose of animal tranquiliser (aka Ketamine) may be THE most stunningly > > good thing that ever happened to them. For others it would be a crutch > > and a prop better not used. > > > > Even Gerhard, who I have long appreciated for his measured approach > > and sense of fairness, and who I'm sure intended to give good and kind > > advice, risks tearing at sensitive feelings with an answer that was > > meant to be helpful. To wit - > > > > >> What do you recommend for someone with chronic fatigue, who can't > > >> exercise, > > >> and has great trouble sleeping? > > > > > If asked, I'd say a possible first step is to stop complaining, > > > accept > > > whatever is and try to make the best out of it. And be happy with > > > that, as > > > it still is more than many others have. > > > > Now, it may just be a "lost in translation" issue but some people > > could easily see this as saying, along with some good advice. > > > > - you're a moaner. > > - you fail to accept your lot as you ought > > - eat your greens, the poor starving children in "...." would love to > > have those to eat. > > - your mother wears army boots > > > > *IF* the person with chronic fatigue is Dave, and I somehow doubt it, > > as Dave has evidenced an apparent enthusiasm and go out there and > > gettem ism as much as any on list, then he would I think be quietly > > appalled at such a rebuff (even if it happened to be entirely to the > > point :-) !). If the person concerned is a loved one close to him (eg > > his wife) then pistols at dawn at 10 paces may not be out of the > > question. > > > > Gerhard may just want to put the same advice differently. > > Dave may wish to tell us more. > > Russell may wish to crawl inside his flame shelter and lock the door. > > > > > > R > > > > > > -- > > http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive > > View/change your membership options at > > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist > > > -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist