Hi all,

Really interesting discussion. I think there is something to be said
for the link between intelligence and depression (as I think James
mentioned) as I'm surprised at how many piclisters suffer from it.

I, too, have had problems with anxiety and depression. Even as a
child, I had anxiety problems and then depression was added to it
suddenly in my early 20s.

It is important to avoid extremes in this discussion. The following
statements are BOTH untrue:

1) Depression is just a physical problem and you can do nothing about
it besides drugs.
2) Depression is something one can just "snap out of".

For the first few years of having depression, I didn't know what it
was and I thought I could manage my life by following my "gut
feelings" and being really responsible for my own actions, feelings,
etc. This was a big mistake. It landed me in a deep rut of depression
and constant anxiety for almost two years. I finally tried Zoloft and
while certainly not being a cure, it did help a lot.

At the same time, if I simply took Zoloft and didn't modify my
behavior at all, I would not feel as well as I do today. Exercise,
recognizing irrationally depressing thought patterns, and my religious
faith have all helped immensely.

There is indeed an important difference between sadness and
depression. Sadness usually is a person's reaction to wanting
something and not being able to have it (e.g., losing a loved one, not
getting a job offer, etc.) In depression, you want to be happy but
cannot imagine anything which actually attracts you very much (or
worse, in my case, opposite things would attract me from moment to
moment).

What makes it clear that there is a strongly physical component to
depression is that one's feelings can suddenly shift in either
direction. You can go within minutes from not finding anything
interesting to being intensely interested in things. Also rest and
stress greatly affect the frequency of onset of depressive or anxious
thoughts.

I've found that depression often involves a cycle. For example: you
know that exercise and proper eating would help, but while exercising
you become very tired very quickly and eating the "wrong" stuff may be
one of the few things which gives you pleasure. In this type of
situation, both patience and perseverance are needed. In other words,
you need to be easy on yourself when you just can't bring yourself to
do what you should. At the same time, you must recognize that only you
(with the help of God and the support of friends) can break the cycle
and you will remain in it until it is broken. With this information,
you keep trying to do that exercise and proper eating and eventually,
some opportunities when you feel well enough with present themselves
and you will make use of them and begin the path out of the cycle.

I hope this helps a bit,

Sean

On 1/24/07, Russell McMahon <apptech@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> Permission to speak frankly, Sir!.
> Assumed given
>
> Flame shields up.
>
> There's some good stuff on this thread, and I'm pleased I started it
> (even if its appositeness to so many was serendipitous rather than
> planned).
> .
> BUT amongst the undoubted good advice and different thinking
> suggestions there is still a surprising amount of judgementalism and
> I-'ve-got-the-answer-for-you-ism peeking through.
>
> Several people have suggested some quite sensible sounding ideas re
> life style, attitude, drugs or not,  etc, but have then spoiled it by
> adding effectively " ... and if you just did this as well you wouldn't
> have the problems you do [turkey]". In some cases this may well be
> true. In other cases it certainly isn't. For some at least a small
> dose of animal tranquiliser (aka Ketamine) may be THE most stunningly
> good thing that ever happened to them. For others it would be a crutch
> and a prop better not used.
>
> Even Gerhard, who I have long appreciated for his measured approach
> and sense of fairness, and who I'm sure intended to give good and kind
> advice, risks tearing at sensitive feelings with an answer that was
> meant to be helpful. To wit -
>
> >> What do you recommend for someone with chronic fatigue, who can't
> >> exercise,
> >> and has great trouble sleeping?
>
> > If asked, I'd say a possible first step is to stop complaining,
> > accept
> > whatever is and try to make the best out of it. And be happy with
> > that, as
> > it still is more than many others have.
>
> Now, it may just be a "lost in translation" issue but some people
> could easily see this as saying, along with some good advice.
>
> - you're a moaner.
> - you fail to accept your lot as you ought
> - eat your greens, the poor starving children in "...." would love to
> have those to eat.
> - your mother wears army boots
>
> *IF* the person with chronic fatigue is Dave, and I somehow doubt it,
> as Dave has evidenced an apparent enthusiasm and go out there and
> gettem ism as much as any on list, then he would I think be quietly
> appalled at such a rebuff (even if it happened to be entirely to the
> point :-) !). If the person concerned is a loved one close to him (eg
> his wife) then pistols at dawn at 10 paces may not be out of the
> question.
>
> Gerhard may just want to put the same advice differently.
> Dave may wish to tell us more.
> Russell may wish to crawl inside his flame shelter and lock the door.
>
>
>         R
>
>
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