On Sat, 2006-09-02 at 22:52 -0500, Matt Pobursky wrote:
> I realize hobbyists don't like to hear it, but chip manufacturers
> could really care less about hobbyists. Yes, even Microchip. The
> whole "hobbyist friendly" notion was more of an accident than any
> brilliant planning by chip companies. The packages deemed as
> "hobbyist friendly", i.e. DIP packages were state of the art at the
> time they were introduced and it was a lucky accident that any
> hobbyist with a soldering iron could deal with them. Times change and
> denser circuit packaging was developed to meet product developer's
> needs. So as a hobbyist, you either adapt and work with the changing
> technology or find another hobby.

Then why does MChip still produce DIP packages for practically EVERY
SINGLE product 40 pins or less? MChip is one of the only manufacturers
these days that keeps DIP versions of basically all new products they
make, as long as they are less then or equal to 40 pins. I have no
problem with that since anything larger then 40pins in DIP is just to
big IMHO.

> I'm always amazed how many people think "professional" PCB's are
> expensive, even for hobbyist use. I suppose it's all in the value
> judgement of what "expensive" is relative to your hobby but I think
> the value of professional PCBs are excellent right now and not
> expensive at all. I put a high value on my free/spare time as I don't
> have nearly enough of it. To me it's more valuable than my "work
> time". If I can get full quality PCB's for ~$10-15 each (and it's not
> hard to do if you look around), I consider that a bargain.
> 
> I'm always amazed at the lengths people will go to roll their own
> PCBs. I've watched the DIY PCB discussions here on the PIClist and
> scratch my head. It certainly can't be any cheaper than buying as you
> need them from a real PCB shop and the quality isn't even close to
> comparable. Yes, I've done it myself and I found it educational. I
> also worked in a company with a PCB manufacturing shop too so I've
> seen both sides up close. I guess I understand if it's an educational
> thing, to learn how it's done. But as a cost advantage, I just don't
> see it.

I guess you're so far from "hobbyists" that you don't realize how we do
things. We don't make PCBs for our projects unless making the PCB IS the
project. 

ALL my hobbyist work, except for ONE project, has been solder
breadboard. Why? Time. When I have a hobbyist project I'm not 100% sure
of how things will be connected and what chips will be used until the
project is nearly done. Designing a PCB, waiting for it to be made,
finding out there is a mistake that can't be worked around and I have to
spin the board, wait a few more weeks for the spin to arrive... As you
can see it just doesn't make sense.

Some hobbyists DO make PCBs, for them I suppose they pipeline things,
start one project, send out the board, start another project, when the
first board comes in finish the first project, etc. I find I work best
when I concentrate on one project at a time, so this pipelining isn't an
option for me.

As for hobbyists who make their own PCBs, you have to remember that time
is basically zero cost to a hobbyist. So the only thing you pay for is
materials. With just those costs I can make my own PCBs for FAR LESS
then a small volume PCB order with a board house. Of course, my PCB
won't have as fine detail, will take ALOT of work to get going, won't
have a solder mask OR silkscreen, but it WOULD be cheaper.

A good example is the last PCB I sent out measured 1.5"x2.5". It cost me
$10 per board to have it made. A 4x6" piece of presensitized PCB is
about $5 where I live. The developer and etchant I use probably cost me
about $0.50 each. The transparency is about $0.10. The toner is
basically free. If I break a drill bit, that costs me about $2. So,
worst case, I can make 4 of my 1.5"x2.5" boards for at worst about
$8.10. That's $2.025 each board. Nearly 5 times cheaper. Also, from a
hobbyist point of view you have to realize that to get that $10/board
price, I had to buy 10 of them. $100 spent vs. $8.10 spent is a BIG
difference to a hobbyist.

TTYL

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