> > Where is even ONE operating stirling engine that is 
> actually doing its 
> > promised job, generating power for someone, cost 
> effectively, even NOT 
> > INCLUDING the development costs?
> 
>     www.whispergen.com
>     www.whisp_ergen.co.nz
> 

I've seen the whispergen system. But I was not aware that they were actually
shipping units. As to buying one... Well, there are no dealers for the AC
unit, and my dealer for the DC unit is:
http://www.boatswainslocker.com/ which does not exactly inspire confidence.

I've added the email address to this post; Let's see if they actually
respond.

> The best proof of cost effectiveness is that a big customer 
> is prepared to lay down big $ for a big order.
> As is the case in the UK with whispergen.
> The reason that it is cost effective there is that it allows 
> gas to be turned into heat and electricity at point of use. 
> Gas is superior for peak load spreading and the power made 
> this way is cheaper than power made from some other sources 
> and ... . The pricing distortions that make this genuinely 
> cost effective in this large and enabling application may 
> well not apply elsewhere. But they are real ones nonetheless. 
> Note that the electricity is made at 100% efficiency(tm) as 
> all the rest of the energy that would have ended up as heat 
> if you'd burnt the gas in a furnace ends up as heat anyway 
> and is used to heat the water or home. In fact the 
> electricity is produced at ABOVE 100% efficiency (it's true I 
> tell you) as after it has been used in the home for non 
> heating purposes (lighting, radio, tv, refrigeration, 
> doorbell, other no heating appliance ... it is then turned 
> into heat almost completely ans so "gets used twice". So a 
> Whispergen inside a home that makes say 800W of electricity 
> and say 4200 W of heat directly actually adds 5000 Watt of 
> heat to the home!
> So the user gets 5800 Watt of energy use or ~115% efficiency 
> :-) compared to burning gas directly.
> 
> You can buy one now if you wish :-)

No, the AC unit is not available in the USA. I'll be curious to see if the
DC unit is really available to me here.

> Note also that Whispe_gen has been selling at horrendous 
> prices for some years to the well heeled boating fraternity. 
> These are "what the market will bear" sales in direct 
> competition with alternatives and the fact that they have 
> been selling, albeit in small volume, shows they are cost 
> effective, all things considered. "All things considered" is 
> an important point, as cost effectiveness can only be 
> realistically measured in that environment. If someone is 
> buying the product in an open market then, stupidity and 
> corruption aside, it's cost effective for them.

Or they have been promised that it will be cost effective and are not
prepared for the repair, replacement, and warranty costs.

> I think your argument would be better changed to something 
> like "Even when development costs are ignored, Stirling 
> engines have so far proved themselves cost effective only in 
> small or niche markets"
> rather than attempting to filter eg whispergen out of 
> existence.

I'm not convinced that they are cost effective. I'm not seeing any satisfied
customer letters, or even statements of how long one has run without
breaking down. But I must admit, if there is hope for Stirlings, it lays
with whispergen, and I am very interested to watch as see what they make of
it. My prediction, sadly, is that the units will start failing in the field
and the company will fold. I hope to be wrong.

Now, in the mean time, there are other things that need to be tried. For
example:

http://techref.massmind.org/techref/member/plp-actcom-f00/sun-turbo-1.htm
Possible quite efficient, long lasting, not terribly expensive.

http://techref.massmind.org/techref/idea/mc-heat-inject.htm Not efficient
but cheap as all heck.

http://www.flashsteam.com/ Not efficient, expensive, but probably long
lasting. If he would use solar, the efficiency doesn't matter so much.

http://www.redrok.com/engine.htm Lots of information on many alternatives.
Not many completed projects.

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2003/6/26/10248/0825 Lots of crazy ideas
just waiting to be tried.

And in keeping with "money where mouth is" I am interested in providing
partial financial support for the attempted development of any of the above
or other reasonable heat engine ideas OTHER than stirling. In return I get
non-exclusive publishing rights. You just have to document what you do and
the outcome. Pictures, simple text descriptions, measurements of the result.

It doesn't have to actually work, in fact, failure is GREAT because it shows
what not to do in the future; IF it is documented and available to direct
future efforts. And that is my main point: Probably thousands of hobby level
mechanics have attempted to build Stirling engines with the goal of solving
the worlds energy needs. Not one has succeeded. People who are interested in
this area would not be throwing bad hours after good, IF they had proof of
that assertion.


---
James Newton, massmind.org Knowledge Archiver 
james@massmind.org 1-619-652-0593 fax:1-208-279-8767 
http://www.massmind.org Saving what YOU know.

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