In explaining this whole thread to an officemate ("so now here's a topic to get a bunch of engineer's in a room arguing about") I came up with these thought models: For this test case I assumed the "problem" was: Given a sheet of metal with a hole in it, where the hole is subject to local heating that is significantly greater (exponentially) than the temperature of the remaining sheet, will the hole become smaller? If not then either the material will expand sideways, or the material will expand outward and stress the rest of the sheet, or both. ( alternately the material is pushed into another dimension :-) So the two test cases are as follows: Assume an inelastic material with a hole in it. Place a ceramic liner inside the hole. place a metal washer/donut/etc into the ceramic liner. Now you have a hole in a chunk of metal inside a hole that's insulated from the external material which will no expand. I beleive this is the point that the "hole gets smaller" crowd is trying to make: That under certain circumstances a normal sheet of metal will behave as this model. In this case if you heat the metal, then depending on it's thickness it may buckle inside the hole, it may expand outward (along the axis of the hole). If the buckling that occurs is small enough and even enough then it may appear that the hole has become smaller, but I doubt it will simply be a smaller version of the original hole - it will have changed shape. Regardless, a shaft that used to fit will likely no longer fit. The "hole gets bigger" crowd is simply saying that it would be a very contrived and improbable situation for a regular sheet of metal to get in. It simply would not happen under normal circumstances. I think of it as an archway in a castle. The arch may become hot, and the archway will become larger regardless of the heating of the adjacent walls. Either the arch will twist as it expands if it no longer fits in the wall, or the wall or the arch will fail. Either way, the archway does not get smaller unless some sort of structural failure occurs. But perhaps I'm taking too simplistic of a view... Please note that when I say the localized heating is greater, this is not a linear function. the heat can drop of very rapidly from the hole to the edge and still be "even" in the sense that the entire metal structure can easily withstand the expansion created near the hole without forcing the hole to become smaller. The temperature difference must be huge to create the buckling of the metal structure near the hole, which I view as a difficult situation to achive, if not impossible, before reaching a liquid state at the hole. Maybe if one circulated liquid nitrogen around the entire sheet of metal about one inch away from the hole... -Adam -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist