- There is no socket or whatever, so how do you program it without ICSP? So I have no idea, I have only done ICSP in the past with these devices. What you could try, is making a small pcb with the chip footprint and ICSP connections, then hold the chip against it whilst programming and moved it to the desired board. Cheap and maybe effective..... - I could not find any info on the program memory types, so are they OTP or Flash or anything else? If they say 16F or 18F then they are Flash devices - What tool do you recommend for dealing with SMD stuff (small production as 10 maybe 15 a month with 5-10 parts on the board so I would need a bit cheaper ones no matter if it takes more time or more expensive to build with) This is coming at it from a cheap perspective, what I have done in the past is to use a standard kitchen oven. Preheat the oven to 240'C, then apply a small amount of solder paste along the 4 lengths of the pads, on the pcb, and position the chip using a pin to move it. Once in place, bake it in the oven for 2min 30 seconds (this changes depending on the oven), basically until the solder paste goes shiny. Then remove and let it set, jobs done. You may have to check the pins and correct if necessary but after a while you can judge how much paste is needed and you'll find mistakes arnt that common - Is there any place in Ireland or UK where I have a chance to buy copper-clad boards that are not as thick (the standard is 1.6mm I think and I was thinking of having as thin as possible as the size will be really small -- the lighter is better Sorry no idea.. My 2cents, Mat -----Original Message----- From: piclist-bounces@mit.edu [mailto:piclist-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf Of Tamas Rudnai Sent: 04 August 2006 09:35 To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. Subject: SMD PICs Hi, Is anybody has experience on SMD sized PICs used as a hobbyist / small production? Couple of questions pop into my mind: - There is no socket or whatever, so how do you program it without ICSP? - I could not find any info on the program memory types, so are they OTP or Flash or anything else? - What tool do you recommend for dealing with SMD stuff (small production as 10 maybe 15 a month with 5-10 parts on the board so I would need a bit cheaper ones no matter if it takes more time or more expensive to build with) - Is there any place in Ireland or UK where I have a chance to buy copper-clad boards that are not as thick (the standard is 1.6mm I think and I was thinking of having as thin as possible as the size will be really small -- the lighter is better Thanks Tamas -- unPIC -- The PIC Disassembler http://unpic.sourceforge.net -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist